Montreal Mikva Controversy

A community builds a mikva, intended for monthly use by women and for conversions from all Jewish streams including Reconstructionist, Reform and Conservative. The funds come from the general Jewish community and from the Orthodox community as well. A local Chabad rabbi is put in charge of the day-to-day operation.

Flash forward 25 years. The Orthodox community begins to to its conversions at other, privately owned mikvas. The Chabad rabbi, still in charge of the community mikva, decides to ban all conversion immersions, meaning the non-Orthodox converts have nowhere to go to immerse.

The community, including Modern Orthodox rabbis, is fighting this unilateral move by Chabad. The Canadian Jewish News reports on the Montreal mikva controversy:

…“This is a Chabad-based cabal,” Rabbi Lionel Moses of the Conservative Shaare Zion Congregation charged. “This is a community mikvah built with community money, which has been a symbol of co-operation and pluralism across the religious spectrum.

“This co-operation still exists between modern Orthodox and non-Orthodox rabbis, and they have gone to bat for us. This is clearly a move by Chabad to interfere with community harmony.”

Rabbi Mordecai Zeitz of Congregation Beth Tikvah in Dollard des Ormeaux believes Mikveh Israel changed its policy because, for over a year, those undergoing Orthodox conversions under the Rabbinical Council of Montreal’s beit din had been using another mikvah located at the Sephardi Hechal Shalom Congregation in St. Laurent.

That meant, he said, that most conversion immersions taking place at Mikveh Israel during that period were non-Orthodox.

“That’s why we think he did it,” Rabbi Zeitz said. “It’s created a tremendous obstacle because it should be a community mikvah.”

Rabbi Michael Whitman, spiritual leader of Adath Israel-Poale Zedek Congregation, who is president of the Rabbinical Council of Montreal representing the city’s Orthodox synagogue rabbis, also was critical of the mikvah’s new policy.

“Non-Orthodox converts now have nowhere to go,” he said. “It is not a private mikvah. It was built by funds raised by the community.”

Rabbi Whitman pointed to a 20-year-old ruling by Rabbi Moshe Feinstein in New York that allowed non-Orthodox converts to use a mikvah built by the community, in the interest of harmony.

“It is a question of continuing the precedent,” Rabbi Whitman said. “Many other communities operate in the same way.”

[Chabad's] Rabbi [Itche Meir] Gurary, however, dismissed these concerns and rejected any notion of a hidden agenda.

“They overstayed their welcome,” he said of the increased use by converts. “If I let them in, I would have to compromise on cleanliness.”…

Montreal's haredi-dominated Vaad Ha'ir had no comment on the issue, claiming not to be involved in any way.

What is happening here is clear. 25 years ago, Modern Orthodxy was the dominant force in Montreal's Orthodox community. That is no longer true. MO Jews left Montreal in droves during Quebec's various attempts at secession while, at the same time haredim have flocked to the city, unconcerned about a possible Francophone takeover because haredim operate outside of the larger communities they live in. Yiddish is their lingua franca and the surrounding society is always kept distant. Most MO Jews in Montreal were and are native English speakers and worked outside the Jewish community, interacting regularly with non-Jews.

In every community where haredim have become dominant, these types of thuggish issues surface. It was how haredim behaved in Brooklyn after reaching domiance there in the late 1970s, and the same story is repeated from Manchester to Minneapolis to Jerusalem.

And this is the future, at least as far as the Jewish community is concerned. Before long, your JCCs and community institutions will fall under haredi control or influence. The Judaism you belive in will be trampled underfoot, and your children – if you remain in the Jewish community – will be indoctrinated by haredim.

Fight now or leave now, but for God's sake do not remain passive. The time is running very short.

Comments

[Tzitzit Haqeset]

these guys don't eat other people's shchita and force their treif neveilos on everybody else, people keep quiet for the sake of peace and harmony.
they push their own nessekh wine. they are marketing avodah zarah and want to hog the entire rabbinate.
no conversion done by others (including orthodox) is good enough, except if done by "joint venture ascociation" that leaves them with a cut.
it is high time to establish that much of them are definitely out of the pale of normative judaism, those left within are soaking in a cloud of "chashash". they are not kosher, as such, they should be out of the job market of community openings. as simple as that.

[TM]

Smae thing happened in Toronto. What happens is that non-Orthodox Jews eventually put up the money for their own miqva.

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

I'm not so sure this is a charedi issue. 25 years ago in Chicago, a Lubavitcher named Elchonon Ebert tried to stop the non-Orthodox from using the community mikvah for conversions. This in spite of the fact that Reb Moshe's tshuva was written to the Chicago mikvah board. In that case, the Aguda-Chasidic circle basically supported allowing the non-Orthodox to use the mikvah. The only prominent rabbinical figures backing Ebert were Rav Aharon Soloveitchik and Rav Herschel Shusterman.

One might argue this is similar to the Mi Yehudi controversy the Lubavitcher Rebbe stirred up all through the 1970s and 1980s. Please note that outside Chabad, the Charedi world was divided on the issue. Rav Shach spoke vociferously against pressing the matter because the proponents were bound to lose, and it would only united two otherwise hostile camps, the secular Israelis and the Conservative and Reform Americans, against the Charedim. He was right.

[Rabbi Noah Smith]

B"H

One might argue this is similar to the Mi Yehudi controversy the Lubavitcher Rebbe stirred up all through the 1970s and 1980s. Please note that outside Chabad, the Charedi world was divided on the issue. Rav Shach spoke vociferously against pressing the matter because the proponents were bound to lose, and it would only united two otherwise hostile camps, the secular Israelis and the Conservative and Reform Americans, against the Charedim. He was right.

Posted by: Lawrence M. Reisman | March 21, 2007 at 07:35 PM

talk about self fulfilling prophecy a reform rabbi publicly thanked him for his role in the matter.
And the issue is still not fixed and presents a security risk to the land of Yisrael as can be seen from Mubarak Awad scanda for example when a reform rabbi offered to convert a deported PLO activist to allow him to reenter under the law of return see : http://www.whoisajew.com/supplements.htm
the Rebbe also explained that even though the law it self wasn't fixed the pulicity created around this issue caused a number of people to fix their conversions to become Orthodox as was also reported by Igud haRabbonim at that time that they got many calls about this.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

From my brief interaction with him, I get the impression that Rabbi Michael Whitman is the real deal - a black hat wearing MO rabbi that gives a shit about his fellow Jews, no matter what shul they attend. And, he takes his food seriously - no, not the bug checking thing, the gourmet thing.

This isn't the first time a Chabad rabbi has pulled this move. Decades ago, near the lands of the Failed Messiah author, modern midrash relates a conversion/miqveh battle was fought between a MO rabbi and a Chabad rabbi over the conversion of a woman. The Chabad rabbi picked the wrong MO rabbi with which to tangle. The head of the MO movement got involved - and the conversion stood. We'll leave the story on that positive note. It's just midrash, of course - but then again, all migrash is true according to most chabad rabbis I know...

[pushkina]

this is already the case in sydney, australia and most of melbourne too: chabadism has become normative judaism here, because they can provide 'rabbis' so cheaply. because a chabad rabbi sits as rabbi of almost every othodox shul, and in most of the positions of the beit din, what is decided in boro park is what happens here. i can think of 3 or 4 properly trained MO rabbis in the city and eastern suburbs with maybe 1 or 2 more on the norht shore; and that is VERY generous counting. all the rest of the ortho rabbis here are lubbies. there are only 2 non-ortho communities here in sydney and our rabbis are definitely not allowed to use the one "community" mikvah for conversions. most of the mikvah ladies are all lubavich BTs who demand that one do very strange things and recite strange brachot after individual immersion, on the "teachings of my teacher the rebbe". when asked who is their teacher they reply, "my rebbe is the rebbe".

so the non-orthodox use the harbour or ocean for conversion immersions: the children of a woman who converts by the non-orthos can't go to any of our precious orthodox day schools anyway AND a boy who has been brissed by anyone except a mohel certified and/or accepted by the local (almost completely L.) beit din cannot be bar mitzvahed (as per a recent, local, VERY PUBLIC controversy that hit the mainstream news and made the entire community look like crazy people).

a few years ago, the main MO school threw out a lot of kids (from some of the community's richest families) whose mothers had converted at the temple (no properly converted jewish mother = the kids were not jewish) and so a LOT of women who had converted non-ortho went back to convert ortho. most had been living as jews for years; but many are still waiting 4-5 years later for their ortho conversions to be approved. the demands of the beit din become more stringent by the day, even as the beit din's administrators forget to assign people appointments to go before them for their exams.
and the costs! the money the BD is demanding each year becomes more: for lessons in history, din, traditions (things that most average born-jewish women have never heard of); for kashrut teachers,kashrut coaches (coaching for switching the kitchen and advice how to renovate one's kitchen for the sake of kashrut)and mashgichim (for ongoing checking); for mikvah teachers and mikvah coaches (!). i know of 3 women who have given up because they've run out of money for this caprice of ortho conversion.

when i lived in chicago, a long time ago, i had to go to the northside for the mikvah and, because i'm half black, the mikvah lady wouldn't allow me to use the community mikvah until i could prove my jewish birth and membership in a synagogue (didn't have to be ortho).
that was easy and i was/am used to such treatment but how humilating. then i learned that there are 6 congregations of non-normative black jews living in the southside, (almost as karaites) whose women and converts use lake michigan regularly because the normative community doesn't allow them to use their mikvaot.

so, in february, these black women cut holes in the ice of lake michigan to fulfil tacharot hamishpacha, just as the famous stories told by almost every chabad shaliach i've ever encountered of the women of chabad russia did which i think is very sad. chabad uses the example ot show just how filled with jewish spirit and faith in torah law their women were in times of great danger yet the same is not recognised in these poor, black women of chicago's southside.

one other thing about australia is that many of the L. rabbis here are of an age that they would have been able to sign the 1993 or 1994 lettter proclaiming the rebbe as moshiach, mentioned in david berger's book. but i've never been able to get a copy of the letter, with the signatories, so that i can approach them for their rejection of the principle. i'm sure that the names of gutnick, feldman and kinsky were on it, at one time, but because i don't have the text in hand, i can't make a formal accusation or raise the question. and as these are the names of the heads of some of the most important institutions in sydney and melbourne, as well as dayanim, well, here we are stuck in a secretly messichist mess.

[love all jews]

ive never seen such a misguide anti hasidic narrow minded website in my life.Its sad tothink someone has so much hate towards other jews to specifically find these hateful articles Im 16 years old hasidic and in contrast definantly know a different chabad and learnt plenty on moshiach etc. than seemingly youve looked up on .and this web site is wrong seems like its author is a"jewish supremicist".Where are the thousands of stories with chabad and its pro israel approach ?? Will your sick stories and slander help? .NO. Realize its mostly based on hate and love all jews

[love all jews]

ive never seen such a misguide anti hasidic narrow minded website in my life.Its sad tothink someone has so much hate towards other jews to specifically find these hateful articles Im 16 years old hasidic and in contrast definantly know a different chabad and learnt plenty on moshiach etc. than seemingly youve looked up on .and this web site is wrong seems like its author is a"jewish supremicist".Where are the thousands of stories with chabad and its pro israel approach ?? Will your sick stories and slander help? .NO. Realize its mostly based on hate and love all jews

[Yochanan Lavie]

And this is the future, at least as far as the Jewish community is concerned. Before long, your JCCs and community institutions will fall under haredi control or influence.

I hope your message is received more like Paul Revere's than Cassandra's. Meanwhile, Reform and Conservative are moving too far to the left. I am disillusioned with rabbinic Judaism, but I don't think the Karaites offer a viable alternative. I don't know what to do.

[Tzitzit Haqeset]

"ive never seen such a misguide (sic) anti hasidic narrow minded website in my life.Its sad tothink (sic) someone has so much hate towards other jews to specifically find (sic) these hateful articles. Im 16 years old hasidic and in contrast definantly (sic) know a different chabad and learnt plenty on moshiach etc." (oh! yeah!)

says lovealljews. trouble is, buddy, yours are no longer jews, many are no longer sofeq jews either. and as mentioned by neiim zmiros yisroel: ki messoneikho hashem essnoy!

"Where are the thousands of stories with chabad and its pro israel approach ??"

it's all lies. when they say pro-israel, it's pro-chabad. different things, you see?

The MO community in Montreal has weekened over the past 30 years much like the English speaking community, but still exists. Blaming the sepratists for everything might make a good excuse, and while partially true, the same thing has seemed to happen in Brooklyn and there are no sepratists there. Over all a very good summary about a chabad / charedi money grab, where they put no effort or money into the building of the facility. Interestingly, this facility was built in a area that even today is mostly non -orthodox, or MO, very few charedi.

The reaction of the Vad Hair is very telling. 30 years ago they were involoved in every aspect of Judiasim, including Soviet Jews, etc. Now it has been hijacked by a cabal of charadiem (including NK) that had never before had any use for the Vad, until they discovered that it was revenue producing. Once Rabbi Hirschbrung A"H passed away, they put in their own puppet (Nishnic, may he rot in hell).

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

RE: Mi Yehudi, Noah Smith writes that "the publicity created around this issue caused a number of people to fix their conversions to become Orthodox as was also reported by Igud haRabbonim at that time that they got many calls about this." More importantly, the publicity around this issue caused the Conservative and Reform movements to become far more involved in Zionist politics than they were beforehand, so that they now have significant representation in the body that governs the Jewish agency. At the same time, the anti-religious secular leaders, realizing that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" woke up to the fact that they had a common Orthodox opponent. None of this would have happened if the Lubavitcher Rebbe hadn't opened his mouth, and opened his mouth, and opened his mouth. As Conservative rabbi and self-confessed kofer beikur and appikorus Arthur Hertzberg quipped at the Zionist assembly 20 years ago, the Lubavitcher Rebbe's picture belonged above the dais at the world Zionist convention alongside Herzl's. His influence was just as strong.

Ironically, the whole to do had very little effect on the major source of halachic goyim coming into Israel with Jewish identities. The Soviet Jews who left were accepted as Jews without anyone checking their yichus. That didn't change, and it still hasn't changed.

[reb moysh]

That didn't change, and it still hasn't changed.
Posted by: Lawrence M. Reisman | March 22, 2007 at 11:08 AM

oh! no, no, it has changed.
now hi-tech rabbis, with smeecho fon crown heights, insert probes in the rectum of all olims, black und weiss alike. (right zehr at the arrival terminals).
they get a prompt reading that determines, who is a kosher euyleh , parve or kitniyeuys.
mamesh, mamesh (ooysh, sorry, i forgot: he died) kiddush sheym shomayem!
a kosher male jew, is given a aliya right zen und zere, in the terminal.
a kosher female yidden, is given right zen und zehr, a free ticket to the nieu all marble mikve in nearby replica of 770 in kfar chabad.
goyem und, ich weiss, shikses are sent to crown heights und Montreal for mending und blending mit fellow vershippers of avoda zoreh! uva letziyon goyel! oumayn!

[PishPosh]

Hey Love All Jews, what does Israel and Jews in general have to do with a bunch of Poshim and Gazlans taking what dosent belong to them in a community in Montreal.
The Kingdom of Israel despite its avodah zorah stood strong for centuries because unlike the southern kingdom with theifing chavrusah charedis they were civil towards each other. You guys need to go down but we will be damned if we let you take the nation of israel with you.

[pushkina]

does anyone have a copy of R. Feinstein's tschuva on mikvaot mentioned by R. Whitman above? if you do, could you please share it with me? even just a reference to it, so that i can find it myself, or have someone overseas find it to copy and send to me, i'd really grateful.

also, i'm looking for a copy of the letter 1993-1994 that lubavithc rabbis wrote declaring the Rebbe was not dead and yes, the moshiach. i believe that several of our serving communal rabbis and dayyanim signed it and i'd like ot ask them all about it.

if you have a copy of either of these, please contact me. thanks.

[reb moysh]

pushkina
here is a url that could be of interest to u
http://beismoshiach.org/Lashon_HaKodesh/pdf/psak_din.pdf

it has all the signatories listed.

[Ben Qor'ha (Baldwin)]

we get everyweek a newsletter distributed in our community called :
L'chayim
Living (yes, yes) with the Rebbe.
The newsletter is in english but the backpage ends with the yiddish dedication cum blessing or so it seems, in Hebrew Script.
Can anybody explain it to me?
מוקדש לזכות כק אדמור נשיא דורנו
וניזכה זעהן זיך מיטן רבין דא למטה מעשרה טפחים......והוא יגאלנו
thanks

[Elchonon Ebert]

In regards to L.Reismans comments let me set the record streight. I should know as I am Elchonon Ebert. The isue was not a lubavitch isue as being a close talmid of Hagoan Rav Shmuel Berenbaum I asked him before I got deeply involved and he told me to proceed. Later Hagoan Rav Elya Svei called a prominent rosh kollel and told him Der yungerman iz gerecht. Secondly Rabbi Shusterman a Lubavitcher did not in the begining support me he changed his mind later onafter studdiying the facts as more teshuvos came in from Eida Charedis,Rav Yakov Kamenetzki z'l opposing the use of mikvaos by coservative for conversions. Secondly a close study of the teshuva of Rav Moshe Fienstien Z,l seems to say only those Reverands of the coserv. reform who donated money can use it based on choshen mishpot interestingly it does not say for fake conversions .Also Rabbi Ben Tzion Rosenthal z'l one of the greatest gaonim of Chicago was opposed as was Rabbi Karnow also agreat posek in Chicago so was the Merkaz Harabonim of which Hagaon Rav Small Z"L was a member who was Rav Moshe Fienstien z"l brother in law.By the way Iam also a Chosid of The Lubavitcher Rebbe Z"l. whohappens to have learned in Philly and Mir and By rav Pinchos Khan the current rosh at Chayim Berlin Who was together with Rav Feivel Chohen in Crown Heights when Yeshiva Nachlas halaveim was on Crown street.

[yacov]

youuu guys have so much hatee this sitet im yitzeh hashem will vanish you are jealous of habad and their rebbe b/c he did so much for klal yisroel then you guys look how much shluhim the rebbe has