Falash Mura Set Up Christian Missions In Israel?

Ethiopian Jewish leaders are complaining that some of the Falash Mura, Jews whose ancestors converted to Christianity but who themselves have returned to Judaism, have set up missions in Israel to convert Jews and have done so with the backing of several churches. Ha'aretz reports:

    Ethiopian rabbis and spiritual leaders (keisim) called on the government Monday to halt the Ethiopian Falashmura aliyah to Israel, citing concerns that many of the Falashmura are engaged in Christian missionary activity.

    The leaders made the call during a Rehovot conference titled "Defeating the [Christian] mission manifestation in the community," in which hundreds of Ethiopian Jews took part.

    The keisim and rabbis called for establishing new rules for bringing Ethiopian Jews to Israel, maintaining that in recent years many of the Falshamura in Israel have resorted to Christianity and built missions in Jaffa, Jerusalem, and Rehovot, as a result of their difficult financial situation.…

    Conference participants elected a keisim-led committee that will map out the various missions in each city and prepare a list of missionaries, which they will transfer to the Interior Ministry, requesting that they be barred from marrying or being buried in a Jewish cemetery. In addition, the committee will formulate a position paper on potential future Falashmura aliyah.

    "The missionaries persecuted us in Ethiopia, and [we must] not permit them to persecute us in the Holy Land," said the conference participants.

This is a difficult problem. First of all, the Rabbinate already ruled these people must be saved. It did so, however, with the caveat that they formally convert to and practice Orthodox Judaism.  If these charges are true – and they appear to be, at least in part; I have seen documents that support the charges – should all Falash Mura suffer because of the sins of a few?

I don't know. My first reaction is to say no, they should not, and aliyah should continue. But Ethiopian Jewish leaders are adamantly opposed to this. (Indeed, I spoke with one leader about this problem this morning. He said what he has said for much of the past two years – stop aliyah now.)

The problem, it seems to me, is one of a contract violation. Falash Mura got to come to Israel on the condition they observe Orthodox Judaism. The question is, what should we do when that contract is violated?

I should also add that much of the missionary activity comes from financial distress, and Ethiopian Jewish leaders themselves say this is so. Israel has done a poor job of integrating all Ethiopian Jews. This has relegated many to poverty and despair. Successive Israeli governments bear the responsibility for this, for the pain and suffering it causes, and for the Christian missionizing that grows from it.

Comments

[Yochanan Lavie]

Russian non-Jews (of Jewish descent) come to Israel and practise Christianity. There have even been isolated incidents of anti-Semtism, and swastika grafitti. American "Messianic" (Jews for Jesus) Jews make aliya, and proselytize. So it's not only Falash Mura.

Having said that, anyone who violates the Jewish social contract deserves a swift kick in the ass out of the country, no matter what their color. (But let's not stigmatize entire communities).

"(Indeed, I spoke with one leader about this problem this morning. He said what he has said for much of the past two years – stop aliyah now.)"

Wasn't there some rabbi who said this a long time ago but no one would listen, and some even turned against him because of this? Oh yea, that was the LUBAVITCHER REBBE.

[Shmarya]

No, the Lubavitcher Rebbe said NO SUCH THING. He refused to save ETHIOPIAN JEWS. Th eFalsh Mura is a different case. But you're way to bigoted and ignorant to know the difference, now aren't you, Chabadnik?

I agree with Yochanan.
Even better I think we should start promoting Judaism worldwide to non-monotheists (ie. Christians (except Unitarians) and others).
And if anyone talks about Bnai Noah, that is just a cop-out.

How do you know what the Lubavticher Rebbe said or didn't? Perhaps this another case of his ruach hakodesh where he foresaw the missionary activity that is happening right now?

[Shmarya]

Process.

1. Saving lives, pekuach nefesh, trumps everything else.

2. You would leave Ethiopian Jews to suffer and die in Ethiopia, a place where the survivors were heavily missionized, rather than bringing them to Israel? That is what you say Mendel Schneerson "saw."

Please. You're in a cult. Wake up.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"I should also add that much of the missionary activity comes from financial distress, and Ethiopian Jewish leaders themselves say this is so. Israel has done a poor job of integrating all Ethiopian Jews. This has relegated many to poverty and despair. Successive Israeli governments bear the responsibility for this, for the pain and suffering it causes, and for the Christian missionizing that grows from it."

I believe you've hit the nail on the head with that comment. Integration of later-stage ethnic immigrants does not seem to have gone well, perhaps in part due to general Israeli economic growth issues.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Poor Russian Jews are also vulnerable to missionizing. This phenomenon is not unique to Israel- poor Jewish emigres to the USA and UK were also preyed upon by missionaries (no pun intended, for once) during the late 19th-early 20th century.
Those who single out Ethiopians as especially "bad" Jews in this regard have another agenda.

[mazeartist]

Shmarya-

You say that "Saving lives, pekuach nefesh, trumps everything else."

In the past 58 years, Israel has opened its arms to the Bahais, Christian Arabs, South Lebanon Army veterans, Vietnamese boat refugees, and most recently- refugees from Darfur.

At what cost will this unquestioned kindness continue? Aren't you worried about demographics? Don't you support maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel?

Personally, I feel that these missionaries are biting the hand that brought them to Israel. These ingrates ought to be deported.

[Josh]

"...If these charges are true – and they appear to be, at least in part; I have seen documents that support the charges – should all Falash Mura suffer because of the sins of a few?

Hmmm. Double standard? Regarding the Chabad people you say that all are condemned due to one or even a few... Here, with the falsha mura, who are questionably Jewish, you become very concerned about the suffering a of many because of the few. How about the MANY young innocent Israeli unquestionable Jews who these missionaries of yours are sucking away from authentic Judaism and worse yet, taking them into christianity. All this for the sake of your holy mission which reeks of egotism. If you were genuinely concerned about saving Ethiopian Jewy, and truly had no other ulterior motives you wouldn't be on such crusade against Chabad and Chareidim, but obviously you are far from the Tzadik you portray yourself to be.

I think the rebbe knew what he was doing when he took the stance that ethiopians should not be brought to Israel. The rebbe's life was devoted to following halacha correctly, and I believe the rebbe had ruach hakodesh regarding this if he went against the major poskim of his time. Its the only explanation that makes sense, instead Shmarya's absurd claim that "oh he was just racist, thats it. He just hated blacks." The rebbe was right on this issue; the ethiopians coming to Israel have meant so many problems, both for the Jews in Israel and for the ethiopian communities themselves. The majority refuse to go through the process of conversion (which is especially necessary seeing that their dna doesn't match up with any jewish dna, and therefore they most likely didn't descend from Jews). Now we see this ethiopian cause has led to missionizing, losing jewish souls to christianity. I don't think the rebbe, whose whole life was devoted to torah, just decided this one time to break halacha because he was racist; I think he foresaw all of this and knew that by not lending his support to this cause, he could at the very least minimize the damage that would be caused.

[Shmarya]

Josh –

The vast majority of Chabad believes the Rebbe to this day answers their questions and gives them blessings. That alone is enough reason to condemn all of Chabad – except for any individuals who protest that insanity.

[Shmarya]

As for thinking the Rebbe had "ruach hakodesh," etc.,, I'd point out that:

1. According to rov poskim Ethiopian Jews had to be saved. It's a very simple halakha. And the Rebbe's response to it only shows how truly foolish the man was.

2. The Rebbe's alleged "ruach hakodesh" didn't do much for 6 million Jews, now did it?

[Ben Qor'ha (Baldwin)]

ruach haqodesh? prophecy? the later one was left "for fools and minors" we are told. we can now add "for megalomans" too. Their output however is NK (nisht kosha).

[Yochanan Lavie]

The all-but forgotten Rabbi Azriel Hildesheimer poskined in the early 20th century that the Beta Israel are Jews. He arranged for a handful to receive rabbinical training at his yeshiva in Germany. These individuals became leaders of the Ethiopian community and kept the fire of Yiddishkeit burning during the dark years that their fairer-skinned bretheren abandoned them.

At Hildesheimer's yeshiva, the Ethiopians received Orthodox training, as well as secular subjects (he believed in both). Hildesheimer was a great man, a moderate religious Zionist, a modern Orthodox pioneer, and a friend to Beta Israel. Why do we not learn about him anymore.

The Rebbe was a great, but flawed individual. I honor his memory (but not what has been done to it by his followers), but he was wrong about the Ethiopians. He was a human being, not a god. Moshe Feinstein, Ovadia Yosef, Azriel Hildesheimer, and others have ruled that Beta Israel are Jewish and are worthy of rescue from extinction. The Rebbe was almost a Daat Yachid in thinking they were not. I don't think he was a racist; I think he honestly doubted their authenticity. Fine.

However, now racists glom on to what he ruled to denegrate the "shvartzes." What's next: Bnei Israel (Indian) are not Jewish? Yeminites? Anyone who doesn't look like Caspar? 50-60 years ago, Jews as a whole weren't considered "white." It's time for the pot to stop calling the kettle black.

yochanan,

As was pointed out here, by a copy of Reb Moshe's letter, Reb Moshe was not for bringing them to Israel at any cost. On the contrary, he said that in order that they be able to come they must undergo conversion missofek.

It is worthy to note that you at least speak with respect about the Rebbe, while the dogs on this blog do not offer the minimum courtesy. While they differ with position they should at least have respect for a man whose position was always for the best of the klal and even on this case we see how his prophetic vision had something to say.., where we have missioonaries ....

[Shmarya]

Wrong. Rav Moshe ruled they had to be saved. He preferred that they be taken to a neutral country, quickly converted there mi-sofek, and brought to Israel. This was not possible, therefore, they were brought to Israel directly. Rav Moshe continued to support rescue. Why? Because that is the halakha.

No you are lying. Put the copy of the letter you put in the past. Reb Moshe says that they must undergo conversion missofek so that they should not add in assimilation.

[Shmarya]

1. The letter is always up on the documents page.

2. I am not lying. Rav Moshe aided aliya even after it was clear EJs were being brought directly to Israel.

3. You seem to have great difficulty actually understanding how the halakhuc process works. L'chatchilla, Rav Moshe wanted the brief stopover in a neutral country with a giur l'humra. But that was not possible and, following halakha, the only remaining choice was to bring them directly to Israel. Rav Moshe supported that b'dieved, because the saving of lives was and still remains the most important factor.

I ask you shmarya, if moshe feinstein could know what we know today (ie that most wouldnt officially convert, and that missionizing would become a consequence of their immigration), do you think he would have ruled the ethiopians sofek jews and helped them come to Israel? I don't think he would have.

[Shmarya]

Really?

1. The Falash Mura, not the EJs, do the missionizing.

2. Rav Moshe would have ruled based on the halakha, which is pekuach nefesh trumps everything else (except for 3 specific cases for individuals). In other words, they had to be rescued. You see, halakha is not something one uses to support one's own pre-ordained desires. Rav Moshe knew that. You do not.

No I'm asking that if he knew they were not jews, or that they wouldn't convert, would he have brought them to ISrael?

[Shmarya]

You have two groups. 1) The ethiopian Jews/Beta Israel/Falashas saved in 1984, 85 and 91. 2) The Falah Mura, resecued in small groups later. Thge Falash Mura are descendents of Jews who converted to Christianity, for the most part, under duress.

Rav Moshe ruled about the first group, the Beta Israel/Falashas/Ethiopian Jews.

Some Beta Israel converted, some did not. Most who did not refused to after terrible handling by the Rabbinate and especially by haredim. (Rav Moshe worked to stop this ill treatment of the Ethiopian Jews by rabbis, by the way.) The problem with conversions was manufactured largely by rabbis who did not want to have black Jews.

The result of the rotten behavior by haredim and the Rabbinate was Rav Ovadia Yosef's ruling (repeated many times) that Ethiopian Jews did NOT need to convert, because they are fully Jewish. This is the normnative Sefardic position today, the one that the Sefardic Chief Rabbi and head of the Rabbinate's court, Shlomo Amar, follows.

Anyway, Rav Moshe endorsed rescue even when it was clear EJs were going straight to Israel, and not to a brief stop over in Rome, and when it was also clear they may not do the conversion l'sofek Rav Moshe wanted. Why? Again, because the din is a sofek Jew (one whose Jewish ancestry is questionable) is treated EXACTLY LIKE A JEW WITH REGARD TO SAVING LIFE.

Still, even though they have been ruled Jews, their dna points to the fact that they didn't descend from jews. Therefore, in actuality, they aren't jews. And if they refuse to convert, that seems to me to be a problem. Maybe al pi halacha, if Rav ovadia says they are jewish then that is what they are treated as, but the fact remains that they most likely are descended from jews, and anyone who intermarries with them is marrying out of the jewish people.

[Shmarya]

Your ignorance of both halakha and history is astounding.

1. All the DNA proves is that EJs descend either from converts or from the Northern Tribes, depending ont who those tribes really were and who Zipah and Bilha were.

2. Once a community or a person has the hazaka of being Jewish, they are Jewish. That's the din. That is why Rav Moshe worried about mamzerut derived from rabbinic understanding of that halakha. If you read Rav Ovadia Yosef's teshuva, you'll note that Rav Ovadia points this out.

[avrohom]

shmarya,

you are lying. Seethe documentwhere Reb Mshse(despite saying that one must save them even before they convert, nevertheless) writes that WE SHOULD NOT BRING TO ISRAEL PRIOR TOTHEIR CONVERSION BECAUSE THEY MIGHT CAUSE CHASHASHHITBOLELOOT! because they might cause intermarriage they SHOULD NOT BE BROUGHT TO ISRAEL PRIOR TO THEIR CONVERSION. Your statements are not credible whenthey contradict a clear writing by Reb Moshe.

Youbichlal are am hooretz and do notknow alef beyt about halacha and shulchanoruch and have the chutzpah to mouth off about halocho and criticize other poskim. get off it you am hooretz midoraysso umiderabbonon!

Pikuach nfesh may not violate giluy aryot and hitboleleut.

[Shmarya]

We've had this out before. Process:

1. The halakha as accepted by Rav Moshe is that a sofek Jew is treated exactly as a Jew for life saving.

2. Therefore, no matter what Rav Moshe wanted with regard to conversions to remove that sofek, etc., Ethiopian Jews still needed to be rescued.

3. When Rav Moshe's desire to have EJs brought to Rome for a day, converted there and then brought to Israel proved impossible, he still supported rescue. Why? because of 1 and 2 above.

4. Illicit relationships cannot be entered into to save a life. That means that one cannot save his own or another life by sleeping with his sister or his mother. It does NOT mean that you don't save someone who *might* one day do so. Similarly, because one day a Jew *may* intermarry, does not mean you do not rescue that Jew from danger.

5. In this case, if EJs were definately not Jewish, you would still need to save them, as Rav Moshe himself noted. Why? Because they were suffering and dying as Jews.

6. Further, Rav Ovadia Yosef and dozens of other poskim hold that EJs are 100% Jewish without any question. Therefore, even if Rav Moshe held that EJs were non-Jews (but he did NOT hold this), one would still need to consider them sofek Jews and then save them.

So shmarya, I have one question then. With all that was known about the rebbe's and chabad's views and attitudes towards ethiopian Jews, one question remains; why didn't any of the gedolim condemn the rebbe for this, or at the very least show disapproval? Why are you the only one who seems to take it this far. To my knowledge, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Moshen Feinstein, and every other great rabbi of the last fifty years have not condemned the rebbe's position on ethiopian jews. What is missing here? Why are you the only one who feels qualified and jusitifed to speak out against the rebbe when all this is common knowledge?

[Shmarya]

The Rebbe's position was not made public until three years ago.

shmarya,

we went through it and you still do not get it:

While it is true that Reb Moshe holds that one must save them even misofek, maybe they are jews, yet and yet he writes clearly:

"eyn lehaviom lerets yisroel ELOH IM KEYN YAAVRU GERUS, SLEOY LEHARBOS CHASHASH HISBOLELUT....", that they should not be brought to erets yisroel UNLESS they undergo conversion' lest they cause concerns of assimilation! These are HIS words. What you claim someone told you or whatevder does not count to discount what HE HIMSELF WRITES!

[Neo-Conservaguy]

What R. Feinstein Z"T didn't seem to understand is that the Beta Israel wouldn't be easily accepted into Israeli society without regard to conversion. The impediments haven't been halachic status, but rather cultural and racial bigotry. Other dark skinned immigrant Jews faced the same issues, but usually had larger populations within which they could establish their own communities.

[Shmarya]

While it is true that Reb Moshe holds that one must save them even misofek, maybe they are jews, yet and yet he writes clearly:

"eyn lehaviom lerets yisroel ELOH IM KEYN YAAVRU GERUS, SLEOY LEHARBOS CHASHASH HISBOLELUT....", that they should not be brought to erets yisroel UNLESS they undergo conversion' lest they cause concerns of assimilation!

And that was impossible. Therefore, because a sofek Jew is treated exactly as a Jew for life saving, no matter what Rav Moshe wanted with regard to conversions to remove that sofek, etc., Ethiopian Jews still needed to be rescued.

That is the halakha.

[avrohom]

"that is the halacha"'

SO SAYS HAPOSEK HAMEFURSSOM HAMEHADER BEKIYUM HALACHA HARAV HAGAON SHEMEREL R.

but Reb who said that they should not be brought to israel becauseof of concerns of assimilation did not hold like the above mentioned possek and held that concernsof assimilation override even the concerns of pikuach nefesh.

Well shmarya, if its true that the rebbe's true position has only been known for 3 years, I still have to ask, why is it that you are the only one who feels he has a right to condemn him? Do any other knowledgeable rabbis speak out against this?

[Shmarya]

Avrohom –

Again, you need to understand the halakha. Rav Moshe supported aliya even after the Rome option was gone becasue the halakha is that pekuach nefesh is the most important thing. All poskim I have ever seen hold this way. The Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Ovadia Yosef, The Rabbinate (in every incarnation it has had), dozens of Israeli poskim, all American poskim during WW2, etc.

The problem here is that your education comes from Chabad, and Chaabd does not teach poskim. Many Chabad rabbis get smicha without ever learning Shu"t, and all halakha is seen as running through Mendel Schneerson and his predescessors.

Only one prominent Orthodox rabbi opposed collecting money on Shabbos to save Jews from Hitler – only one. And he did so by saying that Jews must be holy and that, when we return to God in complete teshuva, God will save us from Hitler and bring the messiah. That rabbi was Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn.

Those Shabbos collections saved hundreds of lives. The position of Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn has no source in halakha,

[Shmarya]

As for why other rabbis haven't made a stink about the Rebbe's personal failure here, I can only repeat that the inforamtion was not public until 3 years ago, Chabad at first denied it, and the rescues of Ethiopian Jews (as opposed to Falsh Mura) are long over. But you'll have to ask them.

shmarya,

you are an amhooretz par excellance! I know all about pikuach nefesh and that one shoulddo everything even for a sofek that it may save one life.

And all Rabbis you mentioned will rule that you should violate shabbos in an event of sofek pikuach nefesh. But here we are talking about a situation where the "Saving" will bring more assimilation (not that they wanted to save them to a place where there was no chashash of more assimilation due to their immigration like the usa, as we now see it unfortunately. Threfore Reb Moshe clearly wrote that they should not be brought to israel prior to their conversion. Check out the letter and learn a little bit more torah and poskim andstop bad mouthing all observant jewswith your foul mouth with the aid of other haters of judaism and maybe you will understand a littl bit of what isbeing said to you.

[Shmarya]

Rav Moshe told me to save them. He knew the Rome option would be impossible – I told him so – and he gave me a bracha to save them nonetheless.

What Chabad bigots like you don't understand is that there is a process to halakha. Rav Moshe followed that process. Menachem Mendel Schneerson and his father-in-law did not, and Jews died because of that.

Again, halakha 101: We don't do things or not do things because of what *might* take place in the future. Kal Vachomer, with pekuakh nefesh.

you are am hooretz 101! Rav MOshe writes in the letter that w should worry about possible and (specially probable!) assimilation. Soffk avodah zarah and giluy arayot especially when they are *probable* is a great concern even in hilchos pikuach nefesh.

[Shmarya]

No, you are confused. Possible intermarriage is not a reason to abondon a person to suffering and death. The fact that you do not understand even this simple halakhic fact shows clearly how prroly you learn(ed). It also reflects poorly on your teachers – Chabad racisits, all of them.

And, one more thing. Hardly any Ethiopian Jews marry non-Ethiopians. You're talking about an intermarriage rate of mayber 1%, probably less.

Rav Moshe endoresed rescue even after Rome was no longer an option. Why can't you understand that?

shmarya,

you are a piggy liar. Rav Moshe never wrote anything that endorses their coming to israel without a conversion lechumrah. He writes clearly "eyn laaloss...eloh im keyn...". That you do not care about intermarriage is not news. You hate all judaism. You write about anyone who is respected in learning and deeds without compunction. You are a dog. But where did you get the idea that entitles you to give opinions on halacha where you have no idea whatsoever?

shmarya,

you are confused and an ignoramus. Put in your head, to READ what Rav Moshe writes:

"eyn lehaviom looretz eloh im keyn" they undergo gerus. WE SHOULD NOT BRING THEM PRIOR TO CONVERSION FOR THE CONCERNS ON INTERMARRIAGE. These are HIS words. your claims that he said othewise are not credible facing his cler writing!

Your question abut the meaning of cocerns of intermarriage: Take it up with REb mOshe. He wrote it not Chabad!

Your questions about the legitimiacy of the Halacha: Take it up with Ra MOshe; not with chabad.

In short: you are am hoorets and extremely confused.

Rav Moshe's writings are here for all to read.

[Shmarya]

Again, you simply do not understand halakha.

1.Poskim answer sha'alot. hey do not always write those answers and they do not write answers to questions they are not asked.

2. As anyone familiar with Rav Moshe will tell you, he only paskined when asked. I asked, got an answer, explained to Rav Moshe that Rome was not going to happen because it was not feasible, and was told to do the rescue and was given a bracha. Why would the later part of this exchange be in writing? No posek would write down a pesak given orally. It just is not done, especially when the pesak is a simple one, as it was here.

3. Over the years I have had contact with close talmidim of Rav Moshe. All have told me Rav Moshe supported rescue and continued to do so after Rome was no longer an option. Why? because the halakha is exactly as I explained several times above.

[Shmarya]

In other words, ma'ase rav counts. Rav Moshe supported rescue, send supplies to absorption centers in Israel, told rabbis to support it and did other positive things. At the same time, he never issued any type of condemnation related to conversions, Rome, or anything else – except to send messengers to beit dins in Israel telling them to treat Ethiopian Jews with kindness, to draw them close and to help them.

TYhose are the facts.

1- but when they DO WRITE answers that is what we follow,

2- and he paskened in the letter for this question,

3- and therefore you and other with "oral tradition" are not credible to concradict written pssak (and claim "maasseh rav" which applies to a maasseh that is PUBLIC for everyone to see), keposhut.

[Shmarya]

Again, you are wrong. Rav Moshe paskined l'chatchilla. L'chatchilla was impossible. Now what? Plan B, which Rav Moshe fully supported and aided. He did this publicly and it is easily verified. If you don't want to rely on me, ask Rav Reuven, his son.

Also, the idea that a pesak given for a specific case automatically is set in stone is foreign to the halakhic process. That you do not realize this again shows the deficiancy of your learning and of your teachers – including Mendel Schneerson.

1- "lechatchila": ao hooretz read the letter "eyn lehaviom ler"y eloh im yaavrooh giyur"' i s a clear language of leikuva and even in face of bedieved.

2-plan B Rav Moshe. NO credibility in face of written pssak letter without an equally powerful written pssak (like "loy ossi dibur umvatel maasseh" and the like. But you do not begin to understand this for youy are an am hoorets gomur.

3- a pssak given for a specific case with it's rationale is a pssak for this specific case and other smilar cases which have the same rationale.

4- His concerns in the written pssak of assimilation and worse now missionizing (abizrayhoo deavodoh zoroh) have been unfortunately brought to fruition (as has obviously the rebbe's ruach hakodesh).

[Shmarya]

Again, what you write is simply not how halakha works, as any non-Chabad posek will tell you. You should have learned this in yeshiva. You did not. Ask your teachers why.

Anyone interested in Rav Moshe's handling of the Ethiopian Jewry question, including his support for rescue, can ask his son, Rav Reuven Feinstein. Or you can read what I wrote in many comments above.

The lesson to be learned form this exchange, in a post about the need to irradicate racism from Judaism, is how profoundly racist Chabad's theology is.

You have a man (too afraid to use his name, it seems) who believes Ethiopian Jews should have been left to die because they are not Jewish enough to be saved. As you think about this, ask yourself why it is correct to blame those non-Jews who did not try to save Jews during the Holocaust but not blame Chabad for doing the same with Ethiopian Jews.

YOU ARE PATHOLOGICAL LIAR! I DID NOT SAY A WORD ABOUT THEM NOT BEING SAVED YOU PIG (IN FACT YOU SHOULD HAV TRIED TO SAVE THEM TO BRING THEM TO CHINA OR TO THE USA OR ANYOWHERE IN WORLD) ; I SAID THAT REB MOSHE WROTE THAT WE SHOULD NOT BRING THEM ISRAEL PRIOR TO THEIR CONVERSION. YOU ARE NOT BELEIVED ABOUT ANYTHING THAT YOU SAY IN ANYONE'S NAME AS YOU HAVE THE GUTS TO CONTRADICT WHAT IS WRITEN BLACK AND WHITE FOR SURE YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY TO BE TAKEN SEERIOUSLY REGARDING WHAT SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT HAVE SAID ORALLY!

IN SHORT YOURE A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR AND A HATER OF OBSERVANT JUDAISM AND A BIG AM HOORETS ON TOP OF ALL THAT.

[Shmarya]

I see the problem. You think it was simply a matter of flying the plane to Canada or NY and dropping them off – it was not. These were people without visas and passports. No country was willing to take them even temporarily -except for Israel. The US is too far away geographically and the operation would have been impossible. You just do not realize how impossible the whole situation was.

The only real option in this regard would have been Rome, but for many very valid reasons, the Italians would not do it. The US and the Israelis also did not want to use the Rome option because, if they had, people would have died as a result – not just the Ethiopian Jews you do not care about, but lilly white Jews and Americans, too.

[avi]

Since this is the foundation of your hatred for Chabad and the Rebbe, it bears commenting.

A written public psak overrides any exparte communication especially when it is of such extreme importance to Jewry ( pikuach nefesh).

In addition, the written p'sak is exact in its wording. If there was a plan B, C, l’chatchila etc. it would have been included in the letter explicitly.

Furthermore, since the issue was of such extreme importance, if there was any ambiguity among the Gedolim etc, R. Moshe could have written another letter to clarify or add to the original letter, which he did not.

The claim that R. Moshe privately told you to do something in this regard, does not contradict the P'sak for the general public since:

A. We do not know exactly what R. Moshe told you. (We only have your word)
B. You may have misunderstood what R. Moshe told you
C. R. Moshe may have told you something that was, lefnim mshuras HaDin. etc
D. R. Moshe saw that you are a meshuggenah ( albeit a caring idiot) and sought to mollify you.

The one thing that is so pompous about this is that you really believe that R. Moshe deigned to alter/explain his p'sak only to you, yet did not think to share it with other Gedolim, especially since it involved Pikuach Nefesh!

If it was so important, don't you think that R. Moshe conversed with other Gedolim (at the very least speak by phone) about his p’sak?

If it was so important, why didn't other Gedolim ask R. Moshe for a written clarification? Where are the other letters?

I am quite sure that the Rebbe made 100% sure of R. Moshe's and other's Gedolim’s p'sak before speaking publicly on the issue.

So, it appears that the Rebbe acted in conformance with R. Moshe’s psak. And to be honest, this did not just become public 3 years ago. The Rebbe’ stated his position at a public farbrengen at the time. YOU knew about it, why do assume that no-one else heard the Rebbe?

Also please stop lecturing us about how to learn and paskin. Some of us have real qualifications, real Smichas (Chabad and Others) - not like yours from blog university.

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

1. There is NO condition in halakha that says what you assert. Rav Moshe answered my question. I told him by telephone that the answer was fine but that Rome. He gave me a bracha to do the rescue and did many things in public to support it.

That you need to invent halakha that does not exist to justify the bigotry and cruelty of Mendel Schneerson and his followers is quite sickening. You'll note Rav Moshe's children and his close talmidim do not refute what I write regarding this. You'll also note the Rabbinate has correspondence on file from Rav Moshe backing up what I have written.

[Shmarya]

"If it was so important, don't you think that R. Moshe conversed with other Gedolim (at the very least speak by phone) about his p’sak?

If it was so important, why didn't other Gedolim ask R. Moshe for a written clarification? Where are the other letters?"

1. Rav Moshe did clarify his pesak. I noted this several times above. He told the Rabbinate. He told heads of various beit dins in Israel. He told leaders of Agudas HaRabbonim.

2. Your "understanding" is that Rav Moshe would have opted to leave the Ethiopian Jews in Ethiopia and Sudan,, rather than bring them directly to Israel. This means Rav Moshe would have held that pekuakh nefesh is overruled by the chance that EJs a) *might* be mamzerim and then *may* intermarry with Jews who are not or, b) that EJs *might*y not be Jewish and then *may* intermarry with Jews.

In other words, you seem to think that Rav Moshe held that a vadai pekuakh nefesh is pushed off by a sofek of a sofek of potential intermarriage. There is NO source in halakha for that assertion.

It is not just that you misunderstand the nature of pesak; you also do not even begin to comprehend halakhot of pekuakh nefesh.

[Shmarya]

1. There is NO condition in halakha that says what you assert. Rav Moshe answered my question. I told him by telephone that the answer was fine but that Rome.

Should read: "…but that Rome was impossible."

[avi]

Shmarya,

“There is NO condition in halakha that says what you assert”

This is so sad. The whole of Rabbinic Judaism is based on the exact wording of a psak din. If you have ever learned Shu"t, which you claim to be an expert, you will see endless analysis of the exact words/phrase used by the Gadol. To claim that the words are not exact casts the whole of Judaism into
doubt. Even a simpleton knows this.

(For “proof” reference the discussion concerning the Beit Yosef's ruling concerning eating fish and milk together and whether the B"Y made a typo in the tshuvah, also see the discussion concerning the use of spirits during Pesach based on R. Akiva Eiger’s cryptic comment.)

“1. Rav Moshe did clarify his pesak .. He told the Rabbinate.”
Please publicize the letters. (remember, this is your cause celebre)
However, even if he did have proof, other Gedolim are free to disagree, according to their understanding of the din. It may be painful to hear, but that is the basis of Machlokes l'Shaim Shamayim. The same Machlokes took place in the Rambam's time concerning the Marannos. Also cf.the Radvaz, which R. Moshe quotes)

BTW,
1. R. Moshe’s letter is dated 26 Sivan 5744 to his grandson. Your “final” (?) letter to the Rebbe was ( 7 Kislev 5744). Please explain since the Rebbe stated in the famous “never-sent” letter ( 12 Shvat) that he supports the ruling of R. Moshe. What was the original ruling of R. Moshe that the Rebbe is referring to?

2. You mentioned an endorsement from R. Soleveitchik. I did not see this letter in your documents section

“2. Your "understanding" is that Rav Moshe would have opted to leave the Ethiopian Jews.”
I have no such understanding at all. It is apparent that R. Moshe. advocated saving “even if they are not Jewish since they believe they are Jewish” The Rebbe agreed to R. Moshe’s ruling. However, I am not sure to what he was agreeing. ( Assuming that the Rebbe’s letter is valid at all since it was never sent)

You state that there were other letters and additional verbal communication between you and R. Moshe.

This may be true but, you must admit, however, that, based on your constant slander of everyone, that your Ne'emanut or Chezkas Kashrus is questionable. Even though this took place many years ago, many people have "invented" stories after the fact.

“3. you seem to think that Rav Moshe held that a vadai pekuakh nefesh is pushed off by a sofek. “
R' Moshe is the one making these assertions. Your problem is with his letter, and/or with the concept. If R. Moshe stated this, it must have been a valid/important reason. This is so despite our humanitarian concern.

“It is not just that you misunderstand the nature of pesak you also do not even begin to comprehend halakhot of pekuakh nefesh.”

This may be true. It may be equally true that you are inferring things into the psak which are not there. That is why the wording is and must be precise.

Please understand that my comments are not any endorsement of the way the Falashas were/are treated.
It is just an analysis of the quoted psak din and your irrational condemnation of anyone who may have disagreed, if indeed, they did disagree.

I am not interested in dragging up the past, since this matter has been thoroughly discussed. I believe you were sincere in your efforts and that you had an effect in their plight. I also know that the Rebbe believed in quiet, targeted, experienced diplomacy ( c.f. the Rebbe’s quietness regarding Soviet Jewry.) which probably did not include utilizing the efforts of a young inexperienced bochur.

You say that the Rebbe did not help, yet you state that ““The rebbe sent a wealthy donor to Rav Moshe for the same purpose, about one year or so before he sent me”. This implies:
1.That the Rebbe actually sent you to try to help
2. That the Rebbe was aware of the issue 1 whole year before you and sent someone to R. Moshe who had the financial means to help.
2. Why would the Rebbe send a “wealthy donor” to anyone, unless it was to enlist that person’s aid for the said cause? Why didn’t the Rebbe ”discourage” him as he allegedly did to you. Maybe that wealthy donor helped more than a thousand Shmarya’s.

Which ideed, begs the issue, What exactly did YOU do to help other than your few letters and meetings? I have read your Bio. Nowhere does it say. Shmarya participated in Operation Moses. Shmarya helped in the absorption centers, Shmarya fed, clothed, taught etc. Shmarya donated $$$ etc. No doubt you helped. In fact, ia main entry is that the chief judge of Chabad endorsed the psak din of R. Moshe. Please inform us so we can give you due credit.

I believe that you had mesiras nefesh for a plight that was possibly beyond your ability. The Rebbe may have recognized or perceived this, as others have commented, but this incensed you so much that you began a decade-old tirade. In the end you do not know what the Rebbe did. In fact,you may have lived a lie for over 10 years.
Regards,
Avi
p.s.
See Yabi'a Omer, vol. 8 Even Ha-Ezer no. 11
See Iggros Moshe, Yoreh De'ah 4:41
Tzitz Eliezer, vol. 12, sec. 66; vol. 17, sec. 48.
R' J David Bleich has a good chapter on this in Binsivos HaHalocho volume 2.
http://www.geocities.com/con_res_55/

"With regard to your question about the status of the Falashas, I believe that a number of years ago the Beis Din of Yerushalayim investigated their status, but I do not know the details, nor what final decision, if any, the Beis Din had reached."
"Letters from the Rebbe" - vol. 5, p. 31-32, dated 16 Shevat 5721 (1961):

Allegedly

However, the chief judge of the Chabad religious court agreed to see us. He endorsed rescue and our efforts.
Four months later, Operation Moses, the rescue operation that saved thousands of Jews from Sudanese refugee camps bordering Ethiopia, would begin.
Fast forward 20 years

[Shmarya]

Avi innaccurately writes:
BTW,
1. R. Moshe’s letter is dated 26 Sivan 5744 to his grandson. Your “final” (?) letter to the Rebbe was ( 7 Kislev 5744). Please explain since the Rebbe stated in the famous “never-sent” letter ( 12 Shvat) that he supports the ruling of R. Moshe. What was the original ruling of R. Moshe that the Rebbe is referring to?

1. Rav Moshe was asked by me through Rabbi Tendler of YU in winter of 1984. He issued that letter after Pesach that year.

2. The Rebbe's letter to me does NOT "support' Rav Moshe's ruling. It says I should go to Agudas HaRabboniom (which Rav Moshe headed) and get a pesak, which I did.

3. The Rebbe did not follow that pesak.

[Shmarya]

Avi writes:

"You say that the Rebbe did not help, yet you state that ““The rebbe sent a wealthy donor to Rav Moshe for the same purpose, about one year or so before he sent me”. This implies:
1.That the Rebbe actually sent you to try to help
2. That the Rebbe was aware of the issue 1 whole year before you and sent someone to R. Moshe who had the financial means to help.
2. Why would the Rebbe send a “wealthy donor” to anyone, unless it was to enlist that person’s aid for the said cause? Why didn’t the Rebbe ”discourage” him as he allegedly did to you. Maybe that wealthy donor helped more than a thousand Shmarya’s."

Process. The Rebbe sent a wealthy donor (who I know) to Rav Moshe claiming that the issue needed to be resolved halakhicly.

Rav Moshe showed the wealthy donor an earlier letter Rav Moshe wrote calling for rescue, and said there was no need to rule again – they must be saved.

My point in bringing that was to show that the Rebbe was being disingenuous, because he ignored that pesak as well as the later pesak I got.

The Rebbe pushed off the donor, who, by the way, was very involved in the EJ cause, well before he asked the Rebbe to help.

[Shmarya]

Avi again writes:

“3. you seem to think that Rav Moshe held that a vadai pekuakh nefesh is pushed off by a sofek. “

R' Moshe is the one making these assertions. Your problem is with his letter, and/or with the concept. If R. Moshe stated this, it must have been a valid/important reason. This is so despite our humanitarian concern.

Again, you do not understand halakha or the halkhic process. Rav Moshe did all the things I said he did. Why? Because NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS WOULD THINK THAT A SOFEK OF A SOFEK OF INTERMARRIAGE WOULD IN ANY WAY PUSH OFF PEKUAKH NEFESK.

That you do not grasp this is shocking. Ask Rav Reuven Feinstein if you still do not understand.

[Shmarya]

Again, Avi writes:

The whole of Rabbinic Judaism is based on the exact wording of a psak din. If you have ever learned Shu"t, which you claim to be an expert, you will see endless analysis of the exact words/phrase used by the Gadol. To claim that the words are not exact casts the whole of Judaism into doubt. Even a simpleton knows this.

Even a simpleton knows that a sofek or a sofek of a sofek of intermarriage or mazerut does NOT push off pekuakh nefesh. It is halakha 101, which is why Rav Moshe never thought anyone would confuse what he wrote. He underestimated the ignorance and bigotry of the followers of Mendel Schneerson.

[Shmarya]

And, Avi, why do you think I would have the correspondence between Rav Moshe and the Rabbinate? His family should have it; I do not. Ask Rav Reuven Feinstein if you want to see it.

[avi]

“Avi innaccurately writes:”

Sorry you’re correct, It is not in that letter although I saw that statement somewhere in the comments.

However, you admit that R’ Dvorkin rules according to R. Moshe.

Also the Rebbe would not send you to R. Moshe unless he expected you to follow RM’s psak.

In any event, your letter to the Rebbe and the Rebbe’s alleged reply was before R’ Moshe’s letter of Sivan which you place in the “documentation” section. Where is the original p’sak and the endorsement of R. Soleveitchik?

I have more to comment on this but will wait for your response.

“Process. The Rebbe sent a wealthy donor (who I know) to Rav Moshe claiming that the issue needed to be " "resolved halakhicly." ”

Your words (as emphasized). Why have we not heard from the Donor in all these years. We have no evidence that the Rebbe was “disingenuous” or that the
The Rebbe “pushed off the donor” other than your statements. I can equally conclude the exact opposite.

“Again, you do not understand halakha or the halkhic process”

Again the posturing. Please understand that I did not write the statement about “assimilation” R. Moshe did. It was written for a REASON. This may be a moot point since there appears to be more than 1 letter which you have not shared with us, nevertheless…

“Even a simpleton knows that a sofek”
My statement stands since you are unable to refute it, despite the rambling

“why do you think I would have the correspondence between Rav Moshe and the Rabbinate?”
Because you are making claims and innuendos not to mention slander based on this correspondence. If you are going to include documentation do not pick and choose.

Since you are such good friends with R Reuvain. Perhaps you should ask him for copies.

Better yet, why don’t you ask R. Reuvain for a statement?

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

Again, you do not grasp halakha at all. Never does a sofek or a sofek of a sofek of intermarriage push off pekuakh nefesh. This is basic halakha. You don't get that? Ask a real rav.

If you look in the documents section, you'll see a letter supporting a congressional resolution. It is signed by Reform and Conservative rabbis, along with Rav Moshe and Rav Solevietchik.

Rav Moshe also has an earlier pesak written to a predecessor of mine at North American WUJS endorsing rescue.

[avi]

Typical Shmarya modus operandi:

If the poster’s comment can’t be refuted, Shmarya:

1. Rants about something else
2. Ignores the comment
3. Belittles the poster

Unfortunately, this doesn’t work. Witness all the statements concerning this topic that he hasn’t been able to refute or he has made:

1. Avrohom’s comments (above). Not refuted
2. My statement that a p’sak din is exact. Not refuted. ( BTW, I never addressed the issue of sofek jew and PN of which you rant about but I will research)
3. That the Rebbe sent a wealthy donor to R. Moshe 1 year before Shmarya. Not refuted
4. No documentation how other groups specifically participated (including YU) other than an endorsement
5. No condemnation of other Gedolim/organizations’ inactivity except that R. Sherer ignored R. Moshe’s Psak ( Shmarya’s contention)
6. Allusions to letters that are not documented, but used as “proof”
7. No documentation of any Gadol’s “objection” to the Rebbe’s action/inaction at the time
8. No documentation of opposing views to saving the Falashas
9. No consideration of the person/organizations actual ability to help and whether this is a contributing factor.

Shmarya, the Rebbe’s “Chief Judge” agreed that they must be saved. The Rebbe, himself sent personsTo R. Moshe who was acting in this regard not just as a posek but as an Askan. You are not aware, in the slightest, of what the Rebbe may have privately done in this regard.

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

I refuted everything you and avrohom wrote. You do not understand the halakha.

As for "opposing views" about saving the "falashas," you must mean views that said they should not be saved. There is one such view,, and Italian rabbi about 1900. It was rejected by leading European gedolim of that time.

As for the Rebbe, he did nothing. His hasidim refused to help with everything from rescue (student visas) to absoprtion. Ethiopian Jews were banned from Chabad schools (non-Jewish Russians, by contrast, were taken in, at least in the younger grades), and there is no record of Chabad helping in any way.

Again, you do not understand what you write. A sofek or a sofek of a sofek of intermarriage does NOT push off pekuakh nefesh. This is a basic concept in halakha. Your rabbis – Mendel Schneerson included – did not teach you well.

[avi]

Shmarya,

In the interests of fairness, I read a significant amount of the material in your blog concerning this issue.

What I really found are endless compelling arguments from well meaning un-biased readers that refute your arguments and your attitude, in general.

As you are doing now, you refuse to acknowledge any of the contra opinions, in a manner that can only be called obtuse. You, sir, have not refuted anything!

If you will trouble yourself to actually read the responses, you will find that even those people that concede that you have some valid points, can equally explain/rationalize them based on the glaringly lack of information that you actually posses, and on many other factors that you refuse to consider.

To your credit, you actually list all the comments, but you must realize by now that an overwhelming majority of people disagree with you.

A sane person would revise his statements/claims based on this, yet you propel yourself further and further into delusion on this and many other topics especially when they are related to Chabad and/or the Rebbe. This too has been mentioned to you in too many posts to count.

Again, my purpose here is not to re-hash history. You have some valid points that would be accepted under normal rational circumstances. Yet only damaged, like-minded individuals could possibly agree with you under the current pretext of your blog.

What you need to think about is that there are a lot of people that care for you and are willing to waste their time posting, not because of the topic, but because they want you to realize the terrible damage you do to yourself and others by perpetuating this delusion.

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

Rav Moshe supported rescue even after EJs were brought directly to Israel. Why? Because a sofek or a sofek of a sofek of intermarriage does NOT push off pekuakh nefesh.

You cannot address this. Why? Because there is no way to. It is halakha 101, as basic as it gets.

This is not a popularity contest. It is not about what you think or what your neighbor thinks. Unless you can find a halakhic source that argues that a sofek of intermarriage or a sofek of a sofek of intermarriage pushes off pekuach nefesh, you have no leg to stand on.

[avi]

Shmarya,

“You cannot address this. Why?”
Refer to the previous post where I stated: “I never addressed the issue of sofek jew and PN of which you rant about but I will research” Can’t you read?

And you addressed, exactly how many of my points? Let me answer: ZERO!

BTW, I can’t find the letter containing R. Soloveitchik’s endorsement. Furthermore, an endorsement on a congressional resolution is not a psak din.

“Unless you can find a halakhic source that argues that a sofek of intermarriage or a sofek of a sofek of intermarriage pushes off pekuach nefesh, you have no leg to stand on.”

No, you are wrong. There were many who refuted that even conceding the halachik issue,there may be mitigating circumstances. You failed to comprehend this. Please re-read the comments.

You can not list any major activities, (other than R. Moshe issuing a few student scholarships) of any of the major Jewish Rabbis/organizations despite ( and probably conceding) R. Moshe’s ruling.

Regards,
Avi

[Shmarya]

1. There is a halakhic principle called pekuakh nefesh. I explained that to you. If you cannot show how this overriding halakhic principle is pushed off by a fear that their *might* be intermarriage, you have no grounds to object to what I write.

2. B'nai Akiva went into absorption centers and worked with EJs. Rav Moshe sent tefillin, sent mesangers to Israeli beit dins, and told others to help EJs with everything.

3. Rabbi JB Solevitchik signed the letter with Conservative and Reform rabbis. So did Rav Moshe. Both noted that this did not mean they accepted Reform or Conservative rabbis – it only meant EJs must be helped.

4. You aren't making any halkhic points, and we are discussing halakha, not your personal opinions.

[avi]

Shmarya,

You obviously have a reading comprehension problem

“If you cannot show how this overriding halakhic principle is pushed off by a fear that their *might* be intermarriage, you have no grounds to object to what I write.”

Wrong again

1. I said I would address the issue. ( 3rd time). But you still have not halacically disproved Avrohom’s statements. Cite sources please not “personal opinions” or un-verifiable conversations

2. I said that even conceding the halakhic issue there are/could be mitigating circumstances that other have commented about.

3. My objection is far greater than the halachic issue of PN alone. Slander, false statements, innuendos, misrepresentation and hearsay.

“3. Rabbi JB Solevitchik signed the letter”
Again : no documentation or evidence of what RS or YU did on a major scale.

(The pupose of this is to prove that there were others who did not publically act as per your requirements )

“4. You aren't making any halkhic points, and we are discussing halakha, not your personal opinions.”

I have only discussed halacha. My first point was that a Psak din is “exact” and I stated references.

You failed to refute them.
You failed to address Avrohom’s point halachically.

You are the one that has not cited any of the sources ( although I cited the Shut).

You refer to a letter of R. Moshe that is dated 4 months after the Rebbe’s alleged letter to you. Yet you acknowledge that the Rebbe sent people to R. Moshe 1 whole year BEFORE you even got started.

How many other people did the Rebbe send or speak to about the “EJ’s”. You don’t know.

This whole issue is not about the EJ’s ( Althogh it's tragic) It’s about your bruised ego.

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

You don't get it, do you? Avrohom made statements that I clearly refuted, just as I have clearly refuted yours. You don't understand this because you do not know the halalkhot of pekuakh nefesh. It is your ignorance of jhalakha that leads you to believe you are making sense when you are not.

The psak din was exact? Sure, if the status quo remained exact and if the possiblities remained static – but they did not. You again do not understand the halakha, the halakhic process or the history of this issue.

Again, Rome was not possible. The only options that existed were 1) Bring EJs straight to Israel or 2) Allow them to die in Sudan and Ethiopia. those were the choices.

You seem to think as Avrohom did that letting them die was the proper choice.

Rav Moshe did not agree with you, becuase the halakha here is very clear, as I have stated several times. A sofek or a sofek of a sofek of intermarriage does NOT push off pekuakh nefesh.

[Zemen]

Stop this nonsense! SAVE all Ethiopian Jews (including FalashMura)!

[avi]

Shmarya,

“You don't get it, do you?”

Your’re the one who doesn’t get it. Read the comments to you. They are overwhelmingly critical of your statements and positions. I know you need to have the last word, but at this juncture, despite your repetition, I will rely on the blog community who has judged you wrong.

Let me clarify.

You have not addressed halachically the reason that R. Moshe stated “that they should not be brought to Israel” in terms of PN. Even though you say that R. Moshe amended his psak (of which we have no record), what was R. Moshe’s original intention in mentioning it as per Avrohom’s criticism.

You constantly mention “fear that their *might* be intermarriage” as an argument.
However R. Moshe clearly states that even if they are “not Jews” (yet claim they are Jews) there is a Mitzvah to save them. I don’t know what you are trying to prove when R. Moshe himself exceeds your statement. The “chief Judge” of Lubavitch agreed with R. Moshe (per your words, although we have never seen documentation, and he may have possibly disagreed)

I and others have said repeatedly that even CONCEDING the issue of PN there may be mitigating factors. You have not refuted this. If someone is drowning and I do not know how to swim, am I required to jump into the pool to save him?

BTW, you mention R. Moshe sending “tefillin” to the EJ’s as part of your proof of PN. Good to know that you consider putting tefillin on people PN. Shmarya, If you decide to drown yourself (R”L), I will have a Chabadnik, standing ready to put tefillin on you.

My main complaint is that you have condemned the Rebbe without justification or proof. You have also failed to document what other’s did or did not do. How many scholarships did R. Moshe provide?, R. Soloveitchik? (remember he was also head of a network of schools), Agudah ? This may be a case of “Harbeh B’tailim Knegdoch” but again you have NO proof.

In fact, instead of praising the Rebbe for reacting to a situation 1 year before you, either by asking R. Moshe to clarify the halacha and by sending a wealthy donor to him, you condemn him. Unbelievable!

As for the statement “we didn’t see” this or that etc. it is a known maxim in halacha that that is a valid argument at all and is NOT PROOF.

“The psak din was exact? Sure, if the status quo remained exact and if the possiblities remained static – but they did not. You again do not understand the halakha, the halakhic process or the history of this issue.”

I’ll admit I do not know the entire history, but formulating opinion based on this blog and on your statements is misleading, and worse. You have slandered without proof, judged without facts, condemned without knowledge.

“You seem to think as Avrohom did that letting them die was the proper choice.”

Avrohom and I have never said this. What we have said that we follow the Psak din of a Gadol. If the Gadol says tomorrow that it’s PN and to bring them to Israel, as you claim, then we follow that, to the best of our abilities, considering all factors with our own personal rabbi as to the EXTENT required of us. You have never clarified “Extent” at all this despite your claiming to be an expert on PN. You seem to be comfortable with the fact that R. Moshe provided “some” scholarship visas. 10? 20? , or “tefillin”, or “soup kitchens” etc. There were thousands that were airlifted. If I sent a check was that OK? Was I “yotzeh”?

You do deserve credit, if by explaining to R. Moshe the immediacy of the matter, the psak din changed. But it is up to R. Moshe to issue another psak din clarifying the matter and to publicize it. As it stands in your documentation, there is no proof and thus we “only have what our eyes see”.

Shamarya, open your eyes!

Regards,

Avi

[avi]

As for the statement “we didn’t see” this or that etc. it is a known maxim in halacha that that is a valid argument at all and is NOT PROOF.

Correction:
That is NOT a valid argument

[avi]

“Stop this nonsense! SAVE all Ethiopian Jews (including FalashMura)!”

Zaman,

Oh, so it’s nonsense to slander a Gadol B’yisroel for over 10 years based on lies?!!!

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

Again, here are the choices:

1. Bring them to Israel directly, no stopover in Rome or other location.

2. Let them die in Ethiopia and Sudan.

What do you choose?

As I've written many times, the halkha is clear. A sofek Jew is treated EXACTLY as a Jew with regard to pekuakh nefesh. Further, no sofek or sofek of a sofek of intermarriage that *might* take place in the future can push off the pekuakh nefesh.

Therefore, EJs must be rescued.

This is the halakha. If you still do not understand it, I can not help you.

[Shmarya]

"f the Gadol says tomorrow that it’s PN and to bring them to Israel, as you claim, then we follow that, to the best of our abilities, considering all factors with our own personal rabbi as to the EXTENT required of us. You have never clarified “Extent” at all this despite your claiming to be an expert on PN"

Perhaps the Alter Rebbe might help you. In his Shulkhan Arukh he brings the halakha clearly. Pidyon shvuyim and pekuakh nefesh REQUIRE you to give up your Shabbos meat and wine. This means no luxuries, doing the second best kiddush (on bread), etc.

You must do everything in your power to save these people. Everything.

[avi]

Shmarya ,

I said I would research and I am in the process. However, I also said it is a moot point since R. Moshe said that we need to save them even if they are non-jews ( yet claim they are Jews).

I have no reason to disagree, nor am I qualified to disagree, with R. Moshe zt”l.
However, this does not mean that another Gadol was forced to agree with RM in any of his statements chief of which, whether they are considered Jews at all. (even m’sofek).despite the other rulings.

We do not have the P’sak of the “Chief Judge” of Lubavitch nor of the Rebbe

And though the Rebbe sent many people to R. Moshe, this does not compel him to follow RM’s ruling after investigating the halacha with his own due diligence

Furthermore, I am not clear even considering PN as to the “extent” one is expected to have.

“pekuakh nefesh REQUIRE you to give up your Shabbos meat and wine. This means no luxuries, doing the second best kiddush (on bread), etc. You must do everything in your power to save these people. Everything.”

And Shmarya, you did that? Get real.

Here are some excerpts from the A.R. Shulchan Aruch for reference.

Regards,
Avi
(http://www.chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=adhaz/sh)

ז הרואה את חבירו טובע בים או לסטים באים עליו ויכול להצילונג הוא בעצמו או לשכור אחרים להצילו חייב לטרוח ולשכור ולהצילו וחוזר ונפרע ממנו אם יש לו ואם לאו לא ימנע ואם נמנע עובר על לא תעמוד על דם רעך.

ח הרואה ספינה שיש בה ישראל המטורפת בים וכן נהר שוטף וכן יחיד הנרדף מפני נכרי מצוה על כל אדם לחלל עליהם שבת כדי להצילם ואפילו הוא ספק אם יצילסט ומכל מקום אם יש סכנה אין לו לסכן עצמו כדי להציל את חבירו מאחר שהוא חוץ מן הסכנה ואף שרואה במיתת חבירוע ואע"פ שהוא ספק וחבירו ודאי מכל מקום הרי נאמרעא וחי בהם ולא שיבא לידי ספק מיתה על ידי שיקיים מה שנאמר לא תעמוד על דם רעך:

ואפילו ישראל בעל עבירות כגון מומר לאכול נבילות לתיאבון מצוה להצילו ואסור לעמוד על דמוסד.

ומכל מקום אין חיוב להוציא ממון על הצלתו שכיון שהוא מומר לדבר אחד מן התורה אינו בכלל דם רעך וכן אין חייבים להחיותו ולפרנסו שאינו בכלל וחי אחיך עמךסה אלא טורח לבדו בלא הוצאת ממון חייבים לטרוח בשביל הצלת גופו ואפילו בשביל הצלת ממונו משום שנאמר לכל אבדת אחיך ודרשו חכמים לרבות אבדת המומר לתיאבון ושם נאמרסח והשבותו לו ולא נאמר והשבות לוסט ודרשו חכמיםע והשבותו אותו בעצמו שאם גופו אובד מצוה להשיבו ולהצילו וכמו שמצות אבדת ממון היא בטורח בלבד בלא הוצאת ממון אפילו לישראל כשר כמו שנתבאר בהלכות מציאהעא כך מצות השבת אבדת הגוף והצלתו אינה אלא בטורח בלבד למומר. אלא לישראל כשר חייבים להוציא ממון על הצלת גופו מלא תעמוד על דם רעךעב.
ויש אומריםעג (ג) שמומר לתיאבון הוא בכלל אחיךעד ורעךעה כמו שדרשו חכמים לכל אבדת אחיך לרבות המומר לתיאבון שהוא בכלל אחיך ולפיכך חייבים להוציא ממון על פרנסתו ועל הצלת גופו כישראל כשר. וירא שמים יחוש לדבריהם להחמיר על עצמו בשל תורה:

ט וכל זה במומר שאינו עומד ברשעו תמידעו כגון
שאוכל נבלות לתיאבון כשאין לו בשר כשרעז לפעמים וכן כיוצא בזה בשאר עבירות שעובר לפעמים כשיצרו תוקפו אבל מי שעומד ברשעו תמיד כגון רועי בהמה דקהעח בזמן שהיו רוב השדות של ישראלעט והיו מרעין אותן בשדות של אחרים תמידפ וכן כל כיוצא בהם דינם כנכרים ואסור להצילם ממות ואסור לסבב להם המיתהפא אבל מותר למנוע מהם ההצלהפב כמ"ש בהלכות עבודה זרהפג:

[Shmarya]

“pekuakh nefesh REQUIRE you to give up your Shabbos meat and wine. This means no luxuries, doing the second best kiddush (on bread), etc. You must do everything in your power to save these people. Everything.”

And Shmarya, you did that? Get real.

I did that.

[Shmarya]

As Rav Dworkin told me, "Chabad holds like Rav Moshe unless we are dealing with a Cahbad minhag. I hold like Rav Moshe [with regard to saving EJs.]"

I told him people would not believe it, that too many Chabadniks were racist. He replied. "What right would they have not to believe it?"

I told him he did not understand what the Chabad street was like.

He replied, "Agudas HaRabbonim issued a public pesak that is identical to Rav Moshe's." [Rav Moshe was the head of Agudas HaRabbonim.] "It was signed by dozens of Chabad rabbis. Not one of them would sign without my approval. Tell that to people if they give you trouble."

I told him it would not be enough. He said it would. I said I hope he was right. He was not.

[avi]

Shmarya ,
“I did that.”

Well, “Yasher Koach” and I mean this sincerely.

"It was signed by dozens of Chabad rabbis. Not one of them would sign without my approval. Tell that to people if they give you trouble."

Thanks for the new info. “dozens of Chabad rabbis!” I guess Chabad was OK.

I don’t recall you mentioning “dozen’s” of any other group’s rabbis. Perhaps they were acting on behalf of the Rebbe?

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

No. They acted because they belonged to Agudas HaRabbonim and Rav Moshe asked them to sign. They did not do so until Rav Dworkin let them.

But, again, Chabad refused to help Ethiopian Jews in Israel, and it refused to help with rescue. The rabbis who signed were primarily shul rabbis affilliated with Chabad, even though their synagogues were not Chabad.

[avi]

Shmarya ,

Listen to what you yourself are saying!

“No. They acted because ...Rav Moshe asked them to sign. They did not do so until Rav Dworkin let them. “

Which proves they are followers of Chabad (despite their affiliation with RM and Agudah) and would not sign unless it was endorsed by RD (who ostensibly represents Chabad )

“But, again, Chabad refused to help Ethiopian Jews in Israel, and it refused to help with rescue.”

This of course, contradicts the above statement. They signed. And again, no proof.

“The rabbis who signed were primarily shul rabbis affilliated with Chabad”

Who cares what they were? They were in a position of leadership to their shuls and endorsed the letter. And they weren’t just affiliated with Chabad. C.f. “Not one of them would sign without my approval”.

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

It does not contradict the above statement. They signed the letter.(There was pressure to sign, remeber.) They were for the most part not sluchim.

Chabad itself did nothing past that. No help with absorption, no student visas, no help with rescue. Chabd banned EJs from its schools and provided NO educational outreach to them.

[Avi]

Shmarya,

Despite the “pressure” they signed based upond RD's permission. That constitutes a Chabad Shliach/Rav “helping” ( however, in a very minimal degree). They may have had appeals in the shuls which would be considered more help.

“Perhaps the Alter Rebbe might help you. In his Shulkhan Arukh he brings the halakha clearly. Pidyon shvuyim and pekuakh nefesh REQUIRE you to give up your Shabbos meat and wine. This means no luxuries, doing the second best kiddush (on bread), etc.”

Please quote your source for this in the AR Shulchan Aruch.

“You must do everything in your power to save these people. Everything.”

As you can see from my sources, above, you do not necessarily have to do everything. But as I said, I am still researching.

Furthermore, you mentioned Pidyon Shvuyim. Until now we have been talking about
Pikuach Nefesh. It is true that Pidyon Shvuyim may intersect with Pikuach Nefesh since the shvuah may also be in danger but this is not necessarily so ( c.f. Maram m’Rottenburg and recently J. Pollard whose life is not in danger). Pidyon Shvuyim has a limit as to the monetary amount one is to spend.

Also, based on R. Moshe’s letter it is not conclusive as to which “mitzvah” he is referring to although he says that they are “in danger”.

According to R. Moshe they are Sofek Jews that need conversion. Let us now get to Avrohom’s statement.

Consider this hypothetical case:
A Jew R’L is wounded and needs to get medical attention. He asks a Rav if he can save that person. A normal response is yes, without qualification. Do whatever you can to do to save the person.

Here we find that RM qualifies the degree of PN required. Take them here but not there. Why does he do this? Was Rome or wherever “better” for their safety? Why not just say do whatever you can to save them. Period. (Which you say he ultimately, agreed to)

However, initially why did he put a restriction on the Pikuach Nefesh? Do you have an answer?

Regards,
Avi

[Shmarya]

You have now agreed to every halakhic point I've made. Further, it is clear that you have no real background in this area of halakha and you do not understand how it works.

Why did Rav Moshe write to take them to a third country? Because, Rav Moshe tried to qualify the type of rescue lechatchila. He was unable to do so because his "solution" was impossible and foolish.

Again, put in that situation, all that was left was to support rescue, however it could be done, for the reasons I've outlined many times.

Rav Ovadia Yosef challenged Rav Moshe regarding Rav Moshe's contention that the Radbaz – who had much direct contact with Ethiopian Jews, unlike Rav Moshe, who never met one – may not have had good information. He proves, clearly – and no Feinstein has ever refuted this – that once there is a hazaka that hazaka remains unless there is definate proof to remove it. Rav Moshe had no definate proof. He had no proof at all.

That is why Rav Moshe continued to support rescue after the Rome option failed.

Again, the idea that a sofek Jew is equal to a "full" Jew with regard to pekuakh nefesh (and pidyon shvuyim, BTW) is a basic one with in halakha. Every major posek has reaffirmed this, from Rav Ovadia to the Tzitz Eliezer. And Rav Moshe also, by his actions after Rome failed.

You might ask yourself why no credible halakhic defense of the Rebbe's inaction with regard to EJs has been brought forth by a known rabbi. The answer is there is no defense with halakha.

[Shmarya]

To be clearer. again, as I have written several times, Rav Moshe believed that all doubts regarding mamzerut and Jewishness could be removed with a conversion for the sake of stringency. He wanted to make sure that happened.

You''ll note his tshuva contains a line that says he is saddened by the behavior of those in Israel who are driving away EJs from Yiddishkeit, and he rebukes these people for their actions. Those people were Orthodox rabbis who wanted to stop the rescue and tried to keep EJs out of the Jewish mainstream. In their minds, schvartes could not be Jewish.

Rav Moshe felt that doing the conversions in Israel was impractical because of the behavior of these rabbis – none of whom would listen to Rav Moshe (or any other major posek, for that matter).

He also felt that doing the coversion in Rome or Cyprus would force EJs to convert to get top Israel, which was fine with him. Rome removed the power, he thought, of those trying to stop Ethiopian Jews from converting.

But it was impossible to do this. Again, now what?

The only option you and your friends have is to say leave them in Ethiopia and Sudan. Why? Because there is NOWHERE ELSE TO BRING THEM EXCEPT FOR ISRAEL.

If you think it is wrong to leave them in danger in Ethiopia and Sudan, the only option, then, is to bring them to Israel.

This is it. That is the choice. You must make it. What do you do? Let them die in Africa or bring them to Israel.

Make a choice.

[Avi]

Shmarya,

Again and again you fail to comprehend or address the issue and supplant it with your own pre-conceived mantras.

BTW. I am still awaiting the source for your Pidyon Shvuyim “halacha” ( which I will probably NEVER get) I have rationally, supplied arguments and proofs and have cited sources, yet all you have done is repeat the same the same mantra over and over again. (Including inane, provocative remarks that only you think prove something)

“Rav Moshe believed that all doubts regarding mamzerut and Jewishness could be removed with a conversion for the sake of stringency. He wanted to make sure that happened”

This is precisely the issue and has bearing on the degree of PN.

There are 3 issues:
Charity
Pikuach Nefesh
Pidyon Shvuyim

All of these have specific guidelines as to the degree of action/inaction required by the Jewish community and whether the recipient (Jewish or non-Jewish) is deserving of this aid, according to the strict letter of Halacha. It may not be politically correct, but nevertheless it is part of Jewish Halacha.

Please note that in some, but not all of these situations, one is allowed to act “lefnim m”shuras HaDin” and we have cases in the Talmud debating it.

Without your providing further documentation, it appears that RM, by his ruling that the EJ’s were “sofek Jews”, had to grapple with the degree of PN that applied. Thus, although ruling that they are in “danger” and that it is a “Mitzvah” to help them, there was a limit to this help, according to halacha. He conceded this by placing a caveat on the PN that applied.

(Why no-one suggested that they convert (m’Sofek) in Ethiopia is beyond me, but I do recall that there were a significant number of EJ’s that refused to convert and even some that did not recognize Rabbinic Orthodoxy as authentic Judaism)

All of the above have significant ramifications. ( Please note that even according to R Ovadia Yosef, (who rules that they are 100% Jews) this might also apply, although there is a difference regarding an individual and an entire community of Jews ( who are all presumed righteous)

When that proved “impossible” (Although, this is a weak argument since RM obviously knew the situation at the time of the psak) you claim that he amended the psak (although you have NEVER provided proof)

“What do you do? Let them die in Africa or bring them to Israel.”

Whatever is done or not done must be judged by halacha. Not by politically correct or emotional sentiment. I may decide to help non-jews in Darfur, and I may consider it a Mitzvah, but ultimately Halacha must decide whether it a “Mitzvah” or not, compassion, or misdirection of charity. And it is immaterial whether others personally disagree with halacha and/or choose to defame those who comply with racist or derogatory labels.

I can provide sources.

Please remember, you have not provided one single source for your outrageous statements and claims.

Regards

Avi

[Shmarya]

Avi writes:

Without your providing further documentation, it appears that RM, by his ruling that the EJ’s were “sofek Jews”, had to grapple with the degree of PN that applied. Thus, although ruling that they are in “danger” and that it is a “Mitzvah” to help them, there was a
limit to this help, according to halacha. He conceded this by placing a caveat on the PN that applied.

The ignorance of halakha and history you demonstrate is truly appalling. Who taught you? Did you actually graduate a yeshiva?

1. Rav Moshe writes:

Yet even before their conversion it is an active precept to save them from being drawn into a non-Jewish creed and from danger as the law is for any Jew, for "safek nefashot l'hakel" ["a doubt involving saving lives is judged leniently"] even where here the doubt is in their very status as Jews.

One should also know that even if in practical application of the law they are not Jews, nevertheless since they think they are Jews and sacrifice their lives for their Judaism, we are obligated to save them.

You somehow think there is a degree to this, and one can choose to participate or not based on this degree. There is no source in halakha for this assertion.

[Shmarya]

Avi writes:

"(Why no-one suggested that they convert (m’Sofek) in Ethiopia is beyond me…"

Because they were in extreme DANGER there. They were dying and being PERSECUTED. They fled on foot to Sudan. Thousands died on the way and in those horrible refugee camps. That is why.

[Shmarya]

Avi writes:

“What do you do? Let them die in Africa or bring them to Israel.”

Whatever is done or not done must be judged by halacha. Not by
politically correct or emotional sentiment. I may decide to help
non-jews in Darfur, and I may consider it a Mitzvah, but ultimately
Halacha must decide whether it a “Mitzvah” or not, compassion, or
misdirection of charity.

You are ignorant of halakha, and you are a fool.

[avrohom]

you are still a pathological liar and am hoorets.

I don't care about what *you* think; just don't say "reb moshe ..." said this or that WHEN HE WROTE THE OPPOSITE: In the letter he writes that we should NOT bring them to israel prior to conversion so that it should not increase assimilation (that is what HE wrote - what you contend is IRRELEVANT); he felt that although one must save them (regardless of whether there certain jews or sofek jews) yet; this SHOULD NOT come at the expense of increasing chashash assimilation (and nowadays the icreased concern of MISSIONIZING!).

[Avi]

Shmarya,

I think everyone sees by now who the fool is here.

“You somehow think there is a degree to this, and one can choose to participate or not based on this degree. There is no source in halakha for this assertion”

Absolutely wrong. I even included cursory quotes from AR Shulchan Aruch ( but your delusion must include the ability to read Hebrew)

I can easily quote more specific halacha from other sources and responsa, but I do not feel the need to do so, since you have failed ( because you are unable) to answer even the simplest of objections.

Again, RM himself put this "degree" in his letter. There are objections even when conceding PN, as Avrohom has repeatedly said. We have already addressed this. You have no answer and are unable to refute.

My latest comment was my attempt to understand RM within the views that disagree with “even where here the doubt is in their very status as Jews.”

“Whatever is done or not done must be judged by halacha. Not by
politically correct or emotional sentiment. I may decide to help
non-jews in Darfur, and I may consider it a Mitzvah, but ultimately
Halacha must decide whether it a “Mitzvah” or not, compassion, or
misdirection of charity.”

“You are ignorant of halakha, and you are a fool.”

That’s it in a nutshell. You believe that all who follow halacha are “fools”. Yet you “invent” and twist halacha to serve your pathetic agenda of slander.

You have absolutely NO answers only rants. Not one question was answered. Not one additional proof brought (I think I'm up to about 15 unanswered questions, but whose counting)

( Bloggers: note how Shmarya gets increasingly insulting when he is UNABLE to prove something. It’s quite amusing)

“They were dying and being PERSECUTED.”

Genius, that’s why I made my statement. Convert them wherever it’s possible. It’s PN. RM knew this, yet ...

BTW, Where is the source for your “second best Kiddush” halacha regarding your "do everything" statement?

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

Avrohom writes:

In the letter he writes that we should NOT bring them to israel prior to conversion so that it should not increase assimilation (that is what HE wrote - what you contend is IRRELEVANT); he felt that although one must save them (regardless of whether there certain jews or sofek jews) yet; this SHOULD NOT come at the expense of increasing chashash assimilation (and nowadays the icreased concern of MISSIONIZING!).

And you think this means that, if bringing them to any country other than Israel was impossible, they should have been left to die in Ethiopia and Sudan. Otherwise, you have no complaint against me, and you continue to complain, so this must be what you mean.

The idea that *potential* assimilation or intermarriage that *may* (or may not) take place sometime in the future pushes off
saving lives is COMPLETELY FOREIGN TO HALAKHA. That is why Rav Moshe supported rescue even after Rome, Cyprus, etc., were not possible.

Your inability to understand this points to two things. One, you simply fail to understand the halakhic process. This, I believe, is due to the way you were taught. Second, you follow a man who operated outside of halakhic norms. You worship him. He and his students taught and bear the blame for your ignorance and your bad behavior.

[Shmarya]

Avi –

Again, simple halakha. The fear that *perhaps* there may be intermarriage in the future does NOT push off saving lives today. Therefore, if the convert them first option was not available – and it most certainly was not – you still must save their lives.

Again, you, like Avrohom, seem to think Rav Moshe meant if you can't convert them first, let them die in Africa. But this is not what he held, because, as I have written over and over again, this is NOT the halakha.

Bringing them to any country other than Israel was impossible. The only choices were leaving them to die in Ethiopia and Sudan or bringing them to Israel. You must be advocating that the correct choice would have been to let them die in Africa. Otherwise, you have no complaint against me, and you continue to complain, so this must be what you mean.

You see, those were the ONLY two choices. Let them die or bring them to Israel.

Rav Moshe's "qualification" was a priori, lechatchilla. If, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, we could have brought them to Cyprus or Rome, done the conversion (a process that would have taken a day), and then bring them toi Israel, THEN AND ONLY THEN that is waht we should have done.

But Cypru and Rome were NOT possible. Now what?

[Shmarya]

Avi –

Again, simple halakha. The fear that *perhaps* there may be intermarriage in the future does NOT push off saving lives today. Therefore, if the convert them first option was not available – and it most certainly was not – you still must save their lives.

Again, you, like Avrohom, seem to think Rav Moshe meant if you can't convert them first, let them die in Africa. But this is not what he held, because, as I have written over and over again, this is NOT the halakha.

Bringing them to any country other than Israel was impossible. The only choices were leaving them to die in Ethiopia and Sudan or bringing them to Israel. You must be advocating that the correct choice would have been to let them die in Africa. Otherwise, you have no complaint against me, and you continue to complain, so this must be what you mean.

You see, those were the ONLY two choices. Let them die or bring them to Israel.

Rav Moshe's "qualification" was a priori, lechatchilla. If, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, we could have brought them to Cyprus or Rome, done the conversion (a process that would have taken a day), and then bring them toi Israel, THEN AND ONLY THEN that is waht we should have done.

But Cypru and Rome were NOT possible. Now what?

[Avi]

Shmarya

“Why did Rav Moshe write to take them to a third country? Because, Rav Moshe tried to qualify the type of rescue lechatchila. He was unable to do so because his "solution" was impossible and foolish.”

You admit that RM “tried to qualify the type of rescue”. However, to you it is a matter of “lechatchila” and “foolish” ness.

Why has no-one, excluding you, made this assessment? It’s “simple halacha” right?

“You must be advocating that the correct choice would have been to let them die in Africa. Otherwise, you have no complaint against me, and you continue to complain, so this must be what you mean.”

I advocate listening to RM ( or OY, or RD or the Rebbe, depending on who is my Rav MaMuvhak) .

You call RM foolish, and this above concept ( together with those that follow it) fools.

You know, Shmarya, there’s a medical term for those who believe everyone but themselves, is insane.

Re-read my comments. February 15, 2007 at 10:31 AM.

P.S C’mon, the source for your “second best Kiddush” halacha regarding your "do everything" statement? ( I know it’s been years, pick up a SA, or at least “google” it)

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

Again: Let them die in Africa or save their lives by bringing them to Israel. That is the choice.

You made that choice (in a weasly way) by writing "I advocate listening to RM ( or OY, or RD or the Rebbe, depending on who is my Rav MaMuvhak)."

Rav Moshe supported rescue even when EJs were brought directly to Israel. You don't understand this. Further, you believe that Rav Moshe could have made a legitimate decision to let them die in Africa.

But, again, halakha 101 passes you by. A doubt about potential intermarriage in the future does NOT push off the HALAKHIC REQUIOREMENT to save their lives.

Now, let me help you with that source from the Ba'al HaTanya. It's in the Tanya itself, in Iggerot HaKodesh. It was written after his Shulkhan Arukh and is consided to be more binding because of it's later composition.

Your rabbis have taught you poorly.

[avrohom]

you are pathological am hooretz aikoress (don'tbeleive in anysanctityofthe torah) and you have the chutzpah to spout off you achorayim about halacha????

listenyouam hooretz: *REB MOSHE*wrote that they SHOULD NOT BE BROUGHT TO ERETS YISROEL WITHOUT CONVERSION TIHS IS A LANGUAGE OF BEDIEVED YOU IGNORAMUS! WHO DO NOT KNOW HOW TO READ A POSSUK IN CHUMASH OR A HALCHO IN KITZUR SHULCHAN PORUCH AND SPEAKS OF HALOCHO!

Nowif you want toknow what*halcoho* rationale for your"Bomb" questions:

there are levels of "pikuach nefesh" vadayand sofek pikuach nefesh! To save a sofek jew could be on the level of "sofek pikuach nefesh" where a sofek avodah zoroh or giluy aroyos could throw off that obligation! on that level.

but you are going to use this for your antisemtic ideologies for you are ananti judaism semitic law of Hashem bytheTorah. But i must tell you that you are an ignoramus 101 and reb moshe wrote what he wrote even on bedieved(go learn how to read kitzur shulchan poruch first) and you are not believed with any thing thatyou say on what reb moshetold you or otherwise for you are a mumar lehachis!!!according to halacha

[Shmarya]

No, I'm sorry, Avrohom, but you do not understand. Perhaps this brief halakhic overview from Rabbi J. David Bleich might help you:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/02/ethiopian_jews_.html

And, no, Avrohom, it is not the case that a doubtful Jew in danger would be classifed as a "sofek [doubtful)" case of saving a life. The halakha is that a sofek Jew is treated EXACTLY LIKE A "FULL" JEW with regard to saving life.

[avrohom]

shmaraya,

you are an apikoress AMHOORETZ:

I READ THE R BLEICH ARTICLE LONG MOONS AGO...BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH R. FEINSTEIN'S LETTER WHICH STATES THAT ONEIS NOT ALLOWED TO BRINGTHEM TO ERETS YISROEL UNLESS THEY CONVERT.

YOUR AMOHORATZISHE QUESTIONSON REB MOSHE ARE A NON STARTERS ANDLISTEN SLOWLY:

ALTHOUGH IN A GENERAL LEVELON IS OBLIGATED TO SAVE A SOFEK JEW AS ONE HAS TO SAVE A VADAY JEW; HOWEVER:

JUST AS A VADAY JEW DOES NOT OVERRIDE VADAY AVODAH ZARAH AND VADAY PIKUACH NEFESH; SO TOO IS SOFEK JEW DOES NOT OVERRIDE SOFEK AVODAH ZARAH AND SOFEK GILUY ARAYOT!

THIS IS REGARDING REB MOSHE'S COMMENTS.

bUT THE REALITY IS: THAT WE ARE NOT DEALING WITH SOFEK GILUY ARAYOT, BUT CERTAIN GILUY ARAYOT FOR THE MINGLING OF BOYS AND GIRLS IN THE SOCIETY' ESPECIALLY IN TODAY'S SOCIETY LEADS TO CERTAIN VIOLATIONS ISSUREY BIOHS !