Chabad And Idol Worship

OnionSoupMix has posted a section of a discussion from a hidden thread on imamother.com, a Chabad women's message board based in Montreal. What follows are brief excerpts from her post:

Moderator :

Well, Chassidus talks about the Rebbe seeing all, knowing all, capable of all ... sounds pretty G-dlike to me!

um, my dear, this is pure avoda zara. AYN OYD MILVADOI.

are you saying that Chasidus is avoda zara? what limitations do you think the Rebbe has?

Moderator :

What is particularly confusing is that the Rebbe stated about the FR that he was "atzmus and mehus in a guf". This is a very explosive statement and seemingly 'wrong'. And hte Rebbe provided no explanation for this.

If you learn Chasidus, it's explained. Problem is, girls especially are often clueless about Chasidus. Shluchos too. I read this the other day in Lessons in Tanya:
Quote:
In the World of Atzilut nothing exists which is separate from G‑dliness; nothing at that level feels that it exists independently of G‑d, and everything in Atzilut is totally nullified to G‑dliness.
The Nasi, the Rebbe is a soul from Atzilus. Therefore, as a soul melubash in a guf, he has no will of his own. He is not separate from G-dliness in any sense.

Poster Ten : I dont see the confusion. We are all atzmus umihus melubash beguf- its called a neshama - thats exactly what a neshama is just the Rebbes is on a higher level and more revealed.
of course the Rebbe is is no way meaning he is Hashem and by the way some people take it to mean that literally. anyone who does is serving avoda zara

Moderator :

I dont see the confusion. We are all atzmus umihus melubash beguf- its called a neshama - thats exactly what a neshama is just the Rebbes is on a higher level and more revealed.

No, that's not what the Rebbe said. The Rebbe didn't say "we are all ..." He said it on the Rebbe!
The difference between Hashem and the Rebbe? Easy! Hashem created the Rebbe
Hashem created the Rebbe, a human being, with G-dly powers.

Here is the whole thing in pdf: Download questions_elokistim.pdf

I spoke with a Chabad rabbi tonight. I pointed out that the Rebbe was not perfect. That ended our conversation, exactly the same way a conversation I had with his wife about one year ago ended. He shook his head and walked away. She told me then that if I say the Rebbe was not perfect,, I "do not understand what a Rebbe is." Both lifetime Chabad members. Both from learned families. Both quite learned themselves. Both teach. Neither is crazy.They're good people.

This comment was left to OnionSoupMIx's post. I think it explains the problem quite well:

When I was in yeshiva at a farbrengen, when the Rebbe was still ... er ... revealed in a physical body, an older bachur stated (with all rabbis present giving a mighty smiling hurumph of assent) that if you mean by "the Rebbe is human" that he is a soul in a body then it is so, but if you mean that the rebbe has human limitations, then CHAS V'CHALILAH to say it. As such, the Rebbe has no human limitations, and even his holy body is only so that he can communicate G-d's will to us.

This was 20 years ago.

I point out the exchange in the NT, that the fictional protagonist is confronted as being declared the son of god, and he responds with a paraphrase of a pasuk that "we are all sons of the living god".

But this is not what they mean, now, is it? When they say that the Rebbe is divine, they do not mean it as they say that rebeljew is also divine just like the Rebbe. They do not sing Yechi for me and you. So which is it? Is there something special about the Rebbe's divinity that you could not say about (for instance) the Vilna Gaon of even the Alter Rebbe? In not, what is special about the Rebbe? If so, define what it means that Rebbe is more divine or differently deivine than all these others.

PS It did not work in the protagonist of the NT's favor either.

RJ

Chabad theology is at its root idol worship. The good news is many of the commenters on that thread are not buying into it.

[Hat Tip: The Elokist himself, Ariel Sokolovsky.]

Comments

[chief doofis]

Twenty five years ago, when the Loobies started the moshiach nonsense, I told people that they would not let the Rebbe die, and will probably eventually deify him. Everyone thought I was crazy (I was/ am, a devoted student of Rabbi / Dr. David Berger, Shlita; my studies led me to believe that the process was almost inevitable).

In my opinion, Lubavitch has fomented the greatest heresy in Judaism in hundreds of years. Chabad, which at one time, was for Chochma, Bina, Vo'daath, is now comprised mostly of barely learned individuals. Noone goes to them for shailos, even their Rabbis (with few exceptions), are merely trained in a few practical areas, and are then sent out on Shlichus.

I have experience with a group who took over a shul, and brought in a "rabbi". The "rabbi", never talks Torah. Every "drasha" is another fairy tale about some Rabbi and his horse!!

Pages are called out in Shul, at times in the davening when it is clearly forbidden to speak (Bein geula l'tfila, for example).
Wild clapping is encouraged on Shabbos, despite the clear Mishnaic prohibition against it. When questioned as to these practices, he can proffer no answer at all. Most people when asked similar questions about Halachik practices, would say something like "that's what the M'chaber says, but the Mogen Avraham is Cholek on it". But if you are an "am haarets", you simply do what you do, and do not KNOW an answer!!

As with so many of Orthodoxy's problems, the menace of Chabad is being "swept under the rug". Chabad is a heresy, worse than most others, because it masks itself as SUPER ORTHODOXY. To the unlearned college student, to the fallen birds, Chabad is the very epitome of Judaism. To anyone with 1/2 a brain, Chabad is Christianity with a grungy beard!

cd i could not have summed it up better

[Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky - BostonChabad.com]

B"H
I still don't know why would you or anyone use terms like heresy or idol-worship in regards to this and at the same time defend people like Slifkin when in both cases there are sources in Torah and Jewish tradition.
I think it is an outrageous example of hypocrisy some people simply still refuse to acknowledge.

[Why Noot?]

Sokolovsky is a fellow who was programed to believe the Rebbe was the moshiach at a Chabad Yeshiva. He cannot be reasoned with. Many have tried, as he is a nice fellow who wants to change the world. He is a victim.

People including Shmarya should encourgage him to seek an Orthodox Rabbi to discuss his issues about the Rebbe ZT"L.

[Nusach Switcher]

After the Rebbe's petira and the period of true Avoda Zara began I swithched nusachs from Sefard to Ashkenaz for I could not bear to say the words Chachma, Bina and Daas three times a day. I was mcarved by Chabad and felt betrayed by their worship of a man/g-d and thus their betrayal of their holy acronym.

[Ma Rabbi]

Reply to Chief Doofis:
1 Your name suits you
2 Who gave you semicha, Mr know it all
3 Look at the Kehot website and see how many Seforim there are on topics of Gemorrah and Halacha written by Lubavitcher Rabbonim who are tremendous Talmeday Chachomim.
4 Dont bring proofs from some young kid on shlichus who is less than 30 years old.
5 Even this young Shliach will also bring Jews to keep Shabbos and do mitzvoth.

[chief doofis]

If you keep Shabbos and believe that a dead guy is god, or even the Moshiach, you are still a heretic!! The Jews for Jesus also get Jews to keep kosher, Shabbos, etc.!!

I received s'micha from a Talmid of the Chofets Chaim, a talmid of R' Boruch Ber, and a talmid of R' Aaron Kotler. Where did you get yours from?

The post that I wrote said, that Chabad once was a source of Torah, but with a few exceptions, it no longer is. Forget about going to the kehot website. Who TODAY in Chabad is a recognized Godol? If you have one, ask him if, according to the Shulchan Aruch Harav, you can daven Shacharis after the Z'man Kriat Shema, ask him if you can clap on Shabbos, and ask him if you can worship a dead guy as god? (You had one very great godol, he died about ten years ago, instead of studying his torah and keeping him alive that way (S'fasav dovivos bakever) you are turning him into another Christ by deifying him and/or calling him the Messiah. Nobody goes around calling the Chazon Ish, the Vilna Gaon, the Chafets Chaim, R' Moshe Feinstein, or R. Soloveitchik, Moshiach!!

That is no young kid on Shlichut he is well into his 40's, still it doesn't matter. Take a young YU musmach, Telz boy. Lakewood boy, EVEN A JTS RABBI, they will know that you cannot call out a page after Baruch Sheamar, and certainly not right before the Amida. MOST CONSERVATIVE SYNAGOGUES HAVE BOARDS UPON WHICH PAGE NUMBERS ARE POSTED!!

There is no violation of any Jewish precept, not a single one of the 13 Ani Maamins is violated by Rabbi Slifkin. TWO OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE BEING VIOLATED BY EVERY ELOHIST!! Do not make any gods besides me!! And if you do, every picture of the rebbe hanging on your wall violates the commandment against images!!

Meshichists are simply going against the Rambam, Hilchos Melachim!! (as well as many other sources)

I once had respect for Chabad. There was a time when I criticized the Litvisher Rabbonim for keeping Torah to themselves (unlike Chabad). When they appoint a new Rebbe (or acknowledge, like Breslov, that he's dead, but we cannot find a suitable successor) and give up the Moshiach nonsense, and certainty the Elohist heresy, I may respect them again!!

[Ma Rabbi]

To the Chief;
I dont have time to adress all your points just some of the most ridiculous ones:
1 Jews for J do Not keep kosher or Shabbos
2The Shulchan Aruch says that lechtchila you shuld daven Amidah before zman Tefillah, but you are Yotze if you daven before chatzos.It also says to make "hachanos" before davening which takes time and is ignored by most of the Litvish world.
3 Conservative "rabbis" do much worse than announce pages during davening. Here in my town, the conservative "rabbi" is a mechalel Shabbos.
4 Last summer I was in Toronto and davened with an Aish Hatorah minyan. The rabbi was constantly announcing pages. When I asked about this he replied that Rabbi F. a Gadol had told him that talking about inyonei Tefiilah is Not a hefsek.
5 Learn the Seforim of the Lubavitcher Rabbonim that are constantly being printed and then decide if Lubavitch has Gedolim.

[Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky - BostonChabad.com]

B"H
chief doofis .
"There is no violation of any Jewish precept, not a single one of the 13 Ani Maamins is violated by Rabbi Slifkin. TWO OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE BEING VIOLATED BY EVERY ELOHIST!! Do not make any gods besides me!! And if you do, every picture of the rebbe hanging on your wall violates the commandment against images!!"

See Psak Dins quoted in the satirical article bellow :
http://donkeymoshiach.blogspot.com/2006/11/rebbegod-worshippers-and-their.html

[chief doofis]

I was involved in cult busting. Jews for Jesus do keep Shabbos (obviously not all do), do daven very similar to us, and do keep kosher, just to fake out the people they want to seduce.

Who says you have to l"chatchila, daven afetr the z'man? There are 24 hours in a day, get up a few minutes earlier and follow Halacha.
I do not approve of many things Conserrvative Jews do, point out chapter and verse where you found a heter to talk out before Shemona esrei, point out a heter to clap on Shabbos, etc. Besides, io you can do it WITHOUT TALKING, WHY TALK? WHAT NEED IS THERE TO CLAP ON SHABBOS, WHAT NEED IS THEER TO DAVEN AFTER THE Z'MAN. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE CHASIDIM, LIFNIM MISHURAT HADIN, NOT PEOPLE LOOKING FOR EXCUSSE TO VIOLATE HALACHA.

YOU STILL HAVEN'T NAMED A LUBAVITCHER GADOL, I DON'T NEED TO GO TO A WEB SITE TO FIND OUT THE NAMES OF LITVISHER TALMIDIM CHACHOMIM, EVERY ONE KNOWS THE NAMES OF THE ROSHEI YESHIVA OF PROMINENT YESHIVOT.

YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDRESSED THE MAIN POINT. THAT IS, ALL MESHICHISTS AND CERTAINLY ALL ELOHISTS ARE HERETICS. END OF STORY!!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Rock on, Chief. I don't understand why deifying (or semi-deifying) a dead man would even be a matter for discussion. It's so obviously wrong.

[chief doofis]

Yochanan;

You are dealing with people who are obsessed. Many years ago, I was dealing with an unaffilated young lady. She couldn't understand my problems with the Moshiach part of Chabad. I expalined to her that if she became "frum" because that's what the Torah says, that's o.k. But if she becomes observant because the Rebbe is the Moshiach, what happens if time proves that he is not? As it says in Pirkei Avot, "Batla davar, batla ahava" (when love is based upon a secondary supposition, with the secondary thing gone, love vanishes).

These people based their whole belief system upon a stack of cards. The cards tumbled down, now they are lost.

Note the answers given to me by Ma Rabbi. No quotes, no direct answers, certainly no response to the heresy issue. He, too, is lost. Years ago, Chabad was respected, not only by Chief Doofis, but by most of mainstream Jewry. Today, it offers NOTHING to anyone who is already observant. It gathers its recruits from the margins.

These dudes should get a life!!

[Ma Rabbi]

To chief Doofis:
1 Not all Lubavitchers are Messichist. Almost none are Elokist.
2I do not talk in my Shul. I showed you that Aish Hatorah was doing this too. And that a prominent Litvishe Gadol said it was OK.
3 The Ragitchover Gaon paskened that one may clap for joy on Shabbos.I dont have the sefer now so I cant give you chapter and verse.
4 You still did not give the name of the Rav who gave you semicha. State his name,and I will be happy to state mine.
5 A few prominent Lubavitcher Gedolim:
Rav Yekusiel Farkash
Rav Avrohom Heller
Rav Shalom Wolpe
Rav Ezra Shochet
Rav Chaiken etc. etc.

[chief doofis]

To Ma Rabbi,

If you are a Lubavitcher and truly not a Meshichist, I have no issue with you (If you believe that the Rebbe was a tzaddik, but that he is dead,etc.etc., that's fine.)

The most noted Talmid of the Rogatchover was R. Mordechai Pinchas Teitz, ZTL. I know for a fact that he did not allow clapping in shul on Shabbos. Besides, why rely on a Kula for something as unnecessary as clapping.

I would gladly furnish you with th enames of the Rabbonim who signed my S'micha. Send me an e mail.

As I said before, there are obviously some Talmidei Chachomim in Chabad, unfortunately, they no longer lead (otherwise they would be screaming bloody murder about the Meshechists!) They are also probably older men, who grew up in a generation before the present one. I was a witness to a $1,000.00 bet, placed by a prominent Rav, who bet (for Tzedaka) that there wouldn't be a SINGLE person in 770 studying Torah. He included all of Tanach, Gemara, Shulchan Aruch, Rambam, etc, but was not willing to include study of the Tanya, Sichos, etc. HE WON THE BET!!

[Ma Rabbi]

The "BET" makes no sense at all. Walk into 770 any day during seder Niglah from 11:am to 7:PM and you will see hundreds of young men studying gemorrah and Shulchan Aruch. In the early morning and late at night is when they study chassidus.

[chief doofis]

Study of Chassidus is Bitul Z'man

[chief doofis]

My wife is complaining that I'm wasting my time arguing with you guys. I should be learning real Torah now!!

Besides, where is your criticism of Ariel the heretic??

[Shmarya]

Ezra Schcohet is a "gaon" now? Please.

Sholom Dov Ber Wolpe the meshuggenah?

My God, what is wrong with you Ma Rabbi?

[Dave]

CD and Shmarya, You are right on guys. I agree with your posts on this thread 100 percent. I think the problem is that there is a kind of anthropomorphic attitude among some Jews, and it began a long time ago.
When someone speculates about the "inner meanings" of some words in the Tanach, or speculates about the nature of Hashem, one is running a risk, resulting in Kabbalah and unnecessary things.

[chief doofis]

They daven Mincha at 3:00 (during seder niglah) Do all of the hundreds of guys learning "real" Torah during that time vanish when they roll out the red carpet, pull out the "holy" chair, and recite the "Yechi" Whom are you fooling ma Rabbi?

[Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
MARabbi this self proclaimed Chief Doofis who says that learning Tanya and Chassidus is not Torah study desrves no response (let him look in the Alter Rebbe's "Laws of Torah Study" and many other sources.

[Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky RebbeGod.blogspot.com]

B"H
What makes R. Wolpe a meshugineh? Disagreeing with R. Shmarya? May my portion be next to his portion:-)

"Study of Chassidus is Bitul Z'man"

Tell that to Rav Soloveitchik who spent many learning hours committing Tanya and Likkutei Torah to memory.

"Rav Volpe" !

The Rabbi of the Meshichistin and a staunch meshichist himself!

[chief doofis]

THE WHOLE CHASSIDUS IS 200 YEARS OLD, TORAH IS 3,500 YEARS OLD. WHAT NEW TORAH WAS DISCOVERED 200 YEARS AGO? DID RASHI STUDY CHASSIDUS, RAV, ABAYE, RAVA? HOW ABOUT THE MECHABER, THE RAMA? DID THEY ALL LEARN CHASSIDUS?

WHICH PARSHA IN THE TORAH TALKS ABOUT CHASSIDUS? WHICH M'SECHTA? CHELEK IN SHULCHAN ARUCH?

GOT IT?

Chief doofis, if you call the rebbe a "very great gadol", and you claim chassidus is bitul torah, then how do you explain the rebbe telling people to study chassidus?

"MARabbi this self proclaimed Chief Doofis who says that learning Tanya and Chassidus is not Torah study desrves no response (let him look in the Alter Rebbe's "Laws of Torah Study" and many other sources."

Of course the alter rebbe is gonna say that, you stupid moron

"MARabbi this self proclaimed Chief Doofis who says that learning Tanya and Chassidus is not Torah study desrves no response (let him look in the Alter Rebbe's "Laws of Torah Study" and many other sources."

Of course the alter rebbe is gonna say that, you STUPID MORON

"Study of Chassidus is Bitul Z'man"

Tell that to Rav Soloveitchik who spent many learning hours committing Tanya and Likkutei Torah to memory."

I don't even know if that's true,or not, but in any case, would the VILNA GOAN even look at one?

It's very possible that Rav Soloveitchick he was sort of talked it, by "compartmentalists" the one who thinks Rav Shachter is a Rasha (c"h) for shaving his beard, but wouldn't tell him that for PR reasons.

Ma Rabbi, get the f-ck out of here, and go beat your kid... like a GOOD LUBAVITCHER

[chief doofis]

We are avoiding the issue. It's not that Chabad i snot as learned as it used to be. It's not that Chassidus is or isn't important.

The real issue is that Chabad has spawned two heresies. Let Ma Rabbi, let any of the Rabbis he listed help terminate the heresies. Let them CONDEMN the Meshichists. Let them publicly proclaim that the Rebbe is DEAD!!

Until then with whom are we arguing? Can we argue Judaism with infidels?

[SimpleJew]

Atzlus is not the essence of G-d. Traditionally, even though the midot of the soul correspond to midot of elokiim (such as binah, chochma, etc.) the human soul is not the same thing as those qualities in G-d and those qualities are forms of guidance of G-d, structures of influence and not the same thing as the "essence of G-d." Post-Rebbe Chabad elohistiim have been producing kabbalistic mumbo-jumbo to "prove" what kabbalah never even *thought of* before, that a man born of woman could be G-d. Even if a window is completely transparent to let in light (which men of flesh and blood are not, even the best) that does not mean that the window itself as a window *is* light. Ariel is very obstinate although a very nice guy. Chabad needs to be much more forthright in distancing itself from this elohist cock-a-doodle-do.

[chief doofis]

Agree with simple jew, but Meshichism is just as much cock a doodle doo, and is much more rampant

[bochur in the central chabad yeshiva in israel]

answers to the 'smart' questions (asked by obviously by very big 'talmidei chachomim' and 'gadols that have been brought up by this web page;
1) Q. the meaning atzmus umehus melubush beguf
A. every jew has a neshama that comes from the essence of god (proofs from many sources and brought down in tanya)but by coming down to this world it surgoes a helem wich varies according to the soul (as brought down in the zohar and as known that their higher and loer souls exaple neshamos de'atzilus and briah and asiya wich is exepanded in chasidus)the rebbe on the other hand has on his soul no helem and also when down in this world is begilui connected to god (wich means he does not have to fight with himself to do a mitzvah) (if looking for stuff that if translated litteraly are apicorses could be found in many times in the torah ex. and hashem sould walk in the garden (breishis))
2)Q. they believe the rebbe is god
A.who??? i'll bet (just like the rabbi mentioned previously) if you could find in the movement wich cotaines a million souls a list of over ten names. you also can't make the whole chabad responsible for a seprerat group. just like you're not responsible for people who eat pig even if the're jewish like you
3)Q. they (chabad) don't condem the meshichistim
A. a)what will they achieve by doing so(just like you dont condem every jew that does not hold like you
b)ask all the rabonim what they think about them and you will see that they do not hold in their ways
c)that does not make them idol worshippers
4)in chabad they don't know how to learn
a)just like any normal group you have the ones that learn and the ones that don't and you cant bring aproof from those that don't to the ones that do
b)chabad is a movement that any jew in even if he is not learned so many is found in chabad
c)even if most people in chabad are unlearned that does not make the movement false
d)you are invited to the hundreds of yeshivahs in chabad and see thousands of bochurim learning torah with all the're rabbonim
5)Q. they clap on shabas
A. as said before the rogetchover paskens that it is permmitted and so says the minchas elozer (if sorces needed ask on website) wich is practiced not as a kula in the the isurim of shabbos but rather a chumrah in oneg shabbos
6)Q. they learn chasidus wich semingly is a new part to the torah
A. a)like all other books wich are printed after that the torah was given are part of the torah like mussar and other books
b)chasidus is based on sources in the torah
c)the need of the generation demanded chasidus just like the publishment of the mishneh and gemorah wich was osur before and not neaded
7)they daven after the zman
a)in halachah it is brought down that until chatzos it is permissible to daven
b)the rambam brings down that whoever does not daven without kavana his davening is not considered a davening and as r' chaim brisker brings down it is talking about the kavana before davening (the other kavanas are brought down when he is yotzeior not ex. the first possuk of shmah and athe amidah therefore it is best davening after the zman and daven than not daven at all (that is only how the rambam paskins wich chabad and other chassidic groups hold by)
(the gru and arizal also bring down the chiyuv to think of god before davening from the mishneh ein omdim lehispalel eloe metoch koved rosh (wich is done by chabad by learning chasidus))
c)if they do that does not make them against the torah
8)Q. they're like the cristians
A. a)so me one cristian that follows the tora with a purpose other than tricking other people
b) even if they are similer that does not make them wrong just like judaism wich is allot of other religions are similar because were taken from it
c) to proove that it is bad could only be brout by a torah source by a tora source

[Shmarya]

Please. Chabad davens way after chatzot, as well. They also daven mincha Hours after sundown. The rest of what you write is, for the most part, silly.

[ChaimYankel]

this problem can be resolved easily:
ChiefDoofus created the world in 6 days, and on the seventh day he rested. He revealed the Torah to Moshe at Sinai, and 600000 other Jewish neshomas. He chose His people from among the nations to be a light to the world, instilling them with morality and a just code of life. In the morning, upon arising, ChiefDoofus brings my soul back to me from Heaven

ChiefDoofus sees past, present, and future events, His greatness is beyond wonder. He knows all; in fact, He is the enigma, the question and the answer. His authority is like no other.

p.s. keep up the hate, i think we're on the brink of getting somewhere

[radclyffe]

Can I just ask people to write in proper sentences! Especially when discussing important or complex issues. Then I might actually bother reading your insanely long posts all the way through. Go on, prove to me that you are actually literate!

CD - I love you - in a purely platonic way :) At least someone has a bit of common sense around here. Hurray for the misnaggdim :)

[radclyffe]

Oh, and what "kavanah" would that be?!! They turn up at 10.30 and practically race through the Tefilah. The whole of the book of Tehilim in two hours!! And they understand every word of that do they?
And as CD so rightly said, the thing about davening before Hatzot is a more lenient view that is bdi'eved for men. It is the normal rule for WOMEN. Men have until the end of the fourth halakhic hour. Get up a bit earlier!!
As for learning - if they were really famous talmidei chachamim, even I would have heard of them, and I haven't.
The Lubavitchers I have met only seem to know Chumash with Rashi, lots of Tanya and Ma'amarim and precious little else.
And the Lubavitchers should stop adoring the Rebbe and analysing the greatness of his soul and start with their OWN!