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February 19, 2006

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ibn tznunya

This disturbing tendency towards fantastical tales (within the entire religous community) always freaked me out "a bit". Kinda makes it hard to take the whole proposition seriously when one is witness to such intelllectual dishonesty, or delusionment. I recall my (secular,ivy league educated) families reactions when I used to lay on 'em Talmudic whoppers. Thank G-d that I got out.

rebtsvi

Good post.

Bruce Lokeinsky

See how myths are made?
Even in the age of mass communication, telephones, telegraphs, recorded history, photographs.

ma rabbi

This proves nothing. This only shows that one person Rabbi B. did not do his research carefully. There are hundreds of miracle stories about the Rebbe. Some of which I know the people involved personally. I can also attest to sevral miracle stories about Reb Aron of Belz and the Chazon Ish, where I spoke to the people myself.It comes down to this. Do you believe in the power of Tzadikim to perform miracles. I have seen enough to make me a believer.

Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky

By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
In the book Challenge an Encounter with Lubavitch Chabad published by the Lubavitch Foundation of Great Britain there is the story of Rabbi Kapul Rosen and his picture the story there is authored by his widow Bella Rosenit's much more similar to what her son is saying than the version of the story as retold by Rabbi Bolton or the one I read in "Lubavitcher Rebbe's Miracles" book published in the early 90s.
If you want to publish it I can scan you the story from the Challenge it's 3 pages.
Probably like with many other Chassidic stories someone exaggerated it while retelling it and it ended up being retold that way.
With respect and blessing.
Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky
617-3722312
RebbeGod.blogspot.com
Yechi Yahweh Tsidkeinu!

Dovid

Darn, I really liked that story... Oh well, this teaches us to not trust a story until you have reliable documentation that it is true.

rebeljew

"This proves nothing."

It proves that just repeating miracle stories is not harmeless or comforting to everyone and may be distressing to people that we are required to comfort. Here, an entire rechilus and the opposite of hakaras hatov was formed around a supporter of Chabad, in order to amplify this story. In the end, his family just wanted everyone to know that he never hated Chabad nor the Rebbe.

Michael

Well said rebeljew!

TzudikD

Every leader is surrounded by myths and tales; secular celebrities have their stories, the pope had his. The only thing these tales prove, by way of the sheer absurdity and imagination involved, is the "everything from the top is truth, no questions asked" policy.

The stories we were told growing up, both about the Rebbe and previous Rebbe's were merely Jewish Disney caliber tales. Unfortunately, unlike Snow White, sane adults continue to believe it right through puberty and on itno adulthood.

And not necessarily this story in particular; the Besht flying in a wagon, etc.

concerned Jew

Hassidim are well-known for telling all types of baloney stories about their leaders, with scant (if any) regard for their truthfulness. It is not a new occurrence, but something that has gone on since the early days of that movement. They think that it's okay, as long as it makes people believe in their sect and leaders. It's part of their propaganda effort. This was acknowledged and strongly criticized by no less than the previous Satmar Rebbe, R. Joel Teitelbaum. While those in the know are aware of this tendency, some naive people swallow such nonsense, hook, line and sinker. Unfortunately, what a great man like him saw as a very serious problem, is seen a mitzvah by many Hassidim who don't reach his shoelaces.

Shmarya

Ariel,

Send it to me and I'll post it.

Thanks!

Benayahu ben Yehoyada

They think that it's okay, as long as it makes people believe in their sect and leaders. It's part of their propaganda effort. This was acknowledged and strongly criticized by no less than the previous Satmar Rebbe, R. Joel Teitelbaum. ......what a great man like him saw as a very serious problem, is seen a mitzvah by many Hassidim who don't reach his shoelaces.

So true , Reb "concerned Jew" so true ....
This posting epitomises more than any other
this terrible tendency in Chabad . At times it seems , that in part of their education process , Chabad rabbis , take courses in deceipt as they would take on Tanya .
With them , it's a science and a discipline .

Benayahu ben Yehoyada

Rabbi ?!! Ariel Sokolovsky
a couple of stories on the minim :
Chullin 2:22-23 tells how Rabbi Eleazar ben Damma was bitten by a snake. A man named Jacob came to heal him in the name of Yeshu ben Pandera . Rabbi Ishmael tells Rabbi Eleazar that Jacob is not allowed to heal; Rabbi Eleazar insists that it is allowed, but dies before he is able to provide proof. Rabbi Ishmael comments that Rabbi Eleazar is fortunate to have died before breaking the law, and quotes Mishlei 10:8, "He who breaks a fence will be bitten by a snake." Typically, Jews are allowed to break the law in order to save a life; here Rabbi Ishmael teaches that one should rather die than traffic with minim.)
Chullin 2:24 tells how Rabbi Eliezer was once arrested and charged with minuth. When the chief judge (hegemon) interrogated him, the rabbi answered that he "trusted the judge." Although Rabbi Eliezer was referring to God, the judge interpreted him to be referring to the judge himself, and freed the Rabbi. But why Rabbi Eliezer was arrested in the first place ? Rabbi Akiva suggests that perhaps one of the minim had spoken a word of minuth to him and that it had pleased him. Rabbi Eliezer recalls that this was indeed the case, he had met Jacob of the town of Sechania in the streets of Sepphoris who spoke to him a word of minuth in the name of Yeshu ben Pandera, which had pleased him.

PishPosh

Chevre u work yourselves up about miracle working Rabbis and their great sagacity stories for what? Misnagid Jews have had sport with these type of Rabbis and stories for centuries. Wise Men of Chelm anyone??? Hershel Ostropolier?
So what if a bunch of detached from reality nebishes think its true, if it werent for people like these psychiatrists would be out of a job. And some of these stories do make for a good chuckle today when modernized to fit current circumstances.
How many times traveling have you wished that you had a flying cart like the Besht to avoid airport waiting?

Dover Eimes Bilvavoy.

Pish Posh
while what you are saying is right ,
meanwhile , these people , hijacked our religion and traded it for idolatry .
A nice criteria we have in the Orthodox world when we reflect on the other denominations , is wether they will succeed in retaining their grand children within the fold.
This question , is as aplicable if not more so with Chabad , not only their grand children , but also ours .

Abe

Someone tell Max of Xlubi fame (sic) about this immediately.

I'm impressed about how much of the story is true... (partner piece etc.) Most stories in Kfar Chabad etc. are 90% though some are based on truth lioke this one. See Mondshein's series on shturem.net. Oh veheyisem neki'im: send it to Bolton...

Isa

I wonder why Chabad didn't have the Rebbe 'walk on water' or why they didn't cure a cripple here and there? Easy enough to fake too! How about a wedding feast and the caterer didn't bring enough food and the Rebbe 'makes' tons more food nor only to feed the guests but poor in the town etc. Easy to fake.
Ever hear the Rebbe miracle (lie) about the Rebbe saving Slovenia from being invaded by Yogoslav (Serb) ? Lies all lies. The Serb forces would have to cross Croatia,lies lies lies.
Here is a 'good' story
A rabbi in my congregation of old told me about one of the Rosh ha Yeshiva from his American Yeshiva (in Ohio I think)It is about how the guy (Rosh Yeshiva) that during the war was a train stoker (feeds coal) on a Soviet train except this guy gets 'sick' on Shabbat, gets 'sick' next Shabbat, the third time the KGB comes after him but he escapes by swimming across a frigid river. nice story huh??
Except the train was delayed three times, the train is carrying needed war supplies to fight off the nazi hun. Question: how many days was the Soviet army delayed from liberating the death camps. How many Jews died because the Soviet army was delayed?
This Rosh Yeshiva is no hero for observing the Sabbath during a war- this guy has blood on his hands.
This Rebbe stories are nothing more that warmed over stories that Kim Il Sung and his son Kim Jong Il would tell to the masses.

Dovid

Though I noticed that the Rebbe himself didin't often say many of these miracle stories, the stories the Rebbe told were stories to learn a lesson in Avodas Hashem. The miracle stories are usually from the Chassidim and they change each time it's repeated.

Dovid

I've been doing my part in telling people this story is made up...

Shmarya

Isa –

Your email is bouncing. Please send me your new address, etc.

Thanks …

Isa

Shmarya:
I get your E-mails at least time to time.
I had a friend who had trouble sending E-mail especially with an attachment. In the title of the attachment he used several hyphen " - "
Then in the subject area heading of the E Mail he used a slash " / "
Once he got rid of the symbols then the E mails went through. I post this here as this is good info that everybody can use.

Dovid

Well, that certainly cleans up that legend. To defend Rabbi Tuvia Bolton's jusy a bit, I'll mention that I heard this story (rather elabrotley and dramaticly I might add), more then five years ago. While the story has been streched almost beyond recognition, it cerainly wasn't Rabbi Bolton who has benn spreading it. He probably just made a dramatization of what he heard.

Shoshana Sloman

It's one thing to glorify one's rebbe. It's another to do it by exploiting someone else, distorting events from their life. But it's quite another again to speak loshon hara about someone as part of the attempt. Such a thing can't bring honor or glory to anyone.

Brian Kresge

I like the original story provided by Ariel Sokolovsky better than the myth. When memories of the Rebbe, z"l, starts getting mired in dubious miraculous accounts, I think it has the affect of making the movement less credible and more fantastic...which appeals in all the wrong sort of ways to all the wrong people (i.e. messianists).

Why do people need to turn the Rebbe into a Chassid version of Benny Hinn? Whether he was 100% on all the time, he left a body of work and lives touched that speak for themselves.

Shmarya

I think the root of this problem is the Rebbe himself. This exaggeration took place while the Rebbe was alive, and he did not put a stop to it. In fact, he sometimes took an active role, embellishing his academic career and other achievements.

Shoshana

I think it is interesting that the myth version is similar to stories in the NT, such as that described in Mark 1:44-45, in which a man is healed and warned not to tell anyone, but publicizes it anyway.

Shmarya

Good point! Why do you think this is?

Shoshana

That's hard to answer because I don't honestly understand the point of the version R' Bolton tells. WHY is there no longer a restriction on publicizing miracles, if the Rebbe said there was before?

But, from a different perspective, this is not the only example where some Chabadniks seem to be mimicking Christianity. Maybe it is an unconscious desire to emulate, even trump, the dominant religion?

Paul Freedman

Brian, Ariel *is* a Messianist. Check out his website.

Shoshana

Well, Rabbi Bolton's "changed" version of the story is online today. He has not retracted one bit of the myth of the miracle cure, itself. And although he admitted previously that his mistake had been attributing hatred of Chabad to Rabbi Rosen, he only seems to have removed the most extreme statements about that, leaving several other comments to that effect in place. However, he has removed Rabbi Rosen's name from the story, substituting "Rabbi J"!

He also said he would put an apology in this week's parsha mailing. I do not receive his mailing. Can anyone tell me if he did apologize and what he said?

buy kamagra

On your issue of learning to communicate with a phone, we've been working on that as well. My son won't really talk on the phone, but he is intrigued with how his voice sounds, so he will play on it. The biggest increase I've seen in using a device was when we installed an intercom between the 1st floor and the 3rd. His dinner job is to call his sisters down for dinner. Now he loves using the intercom and even plays some phrase response ritual games with them - the same thing he does face to face.

Richard Wolk

Gerald "Tuvia" Bolton?
Anyone know if the root of the name Gerald is from the Hebrew "gapo"? The Greek letter "Ro" is written like the English "P" and pronounced like "R", which adds up to GAPO.
Who can this person talk down to? Where the verse says (sic) "Tuvia, that was Avraham" (anyone familiar?) Bolton once tried to pass himself off as Avraham Aveinu, implying that according to the verse "Tuvia" was Avraham's nickname, while the true understanding is (that) Tuvia was Avraham's eved and didn't "zoche" separate introduction. Cleverly applying a sort of personal peyrush of the Rebecca tells Jacob to deceive Isaac story, Bolton fully intended to profit from the elevation of his own status.
HaShem should give him a bracha that he should get to retire immediately.

Helen Mordechai

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Guilty of being a Jew
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