NY State To Issue "Guidelines" On Circumcision – YU Rabbi J.D. Bleich Supports Rabbis, Not At Risk Children

New York Newsday has an AP report on the new New York State guidelines on metzitza b'peh, the oral suction used by many haredi mohels during circumcision to suction blood from the open wound:

The new state guidelines would stop short of a ban, but include precautions that could reduce the chances of infection, said New York State Department of Health spokesman Robert Kenny.

Rabbis will likely be asked to inform their congregations about the potential risks of the procedure and parents advised to seek prompt care from a pediatrician if their baby develops a fever or rash.

Steps would also be taken to "ensure that mohels have full knowledge of their health status" before they perform the ritual, Kenny said.

He declined to discuss details of the guidelines, saying they were still being developed. Several religious leaders who support metzitzah b'peh have suggested that mohels be asked to rinse their mouths with alcohol, undergo regular testing for disease and refrain from doing circumcisions if they have a cold sore.

"Our priority is to protect the public health, and increase the awareness of the potential health risks associated with this practice," Kenny said.

The guidelines are likely to displease some doctors.

Dr. Jonathan M. Zenilman, a professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine in Baltimore, said that while infections have been rare, the potential for harm is substantial enough to justify a ban.

"This is something that is pretty much counter to all of the infection-control measures that we have," Zenilman said.

Asking mohels to police themselves could be ineffective, he warned. As many as 70 percent of all adults have herpes simplex 1, and it is difficult to detect periods when the virus is contagious.

Which is exactly what the problem is. But haredim, led by Satmar and Agudath Israel, have done everything in their power to stop the city and state from regulating circumcision or limiting the practice of MBP, including threatening to marr Mayor Bloomberg's inaguration by busing in thousands of haredim wearing striped death camp uniforms to protest.

The AP notes the problem:

It is unclear how the Hasidic community will react to the guidelines, which would be voluntary.

Rabbi David Niederman, of the United Jewish Organizations of Williamsburg, has argued for no government action, saying there is too little medical evidence to justify a public warning on a ritual performed safely thousands of times a year.

"Parents have been alarmed unnecessarily," he said, adding that he has already begun receiving calls from worried mothers.

He said religious law contained provisions that would allow oral suction to be abandoned, but only if there was proof it could cause permanent harm.

"We are not fanatics," Niederman said. "If there is evidence that this practice is not safe, we will not do it. We will be the first ones to act. That is embodied in the same Torah that tells us to make a bris for a child."

Right. Niederman is already on record comparing MBP to Shabbat law, and has stated continually that there is no evidence of danger, even when many medical experts disagree. Further, Niederman heads the Satmar religious court (beit din) charged by agreement with the city with investigating the cases of herpes related to Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer. The beit din agreed to present its findings to the city by December 1, 2005, but did not do so. And it has not done so since. This is hardly an indication of concern for children. And, if that is not enough, we have the threatened "Holocaust card."

This might lead one to think the haredim are acting badly. But, thankfully for them, a convenient shill exists to protect them, somewhat, from the wrath of (for want of a better description) normal people:

Rabbi J. David Bleich, a professor of both Jewish and secular law at Yeshiva University, said the debate over metzitzah b'peh began in Europe during the mid-19th Century, when suspicion arose that it was spreading tuberculosis.

Ever since, there has been disagreement over whether the practice was recommended by the Talmud for medical reasons, or ordered as a requirement of a covenant with God.

A majority of reform and modern orthodox mohels decided on the former, and now clean a circumcision wound with sterile gauze, a sponge or a glass tube.

But a century and a half of debate hasn't resolved the argument, and Bleich suggested that actions by health authorities wouldn't settle the issue either.

"Whatever changes are going to come are not going to come because of government pressure. If you want to change the way rabbis are doing things, the way to do it isn't to threaten them."

Rabbi Bleich, who early in this controversy suggested that washing the mohel's mouth out with schnapps or whiskey just before the bris would solve the problem – a contention laughed at by infectious disease experts, yet still noted anonymously above – coveniently forgets to mention that doctors proved disease transmission through MBP in the mid-1800's. When the practice was banned, generally by the leading non-hasidic rabbis of the day – the death rate dropped dramatically.

Rabbi Bleich, widely considered an expert on issues of halakha and medicine, seems much more concerned about protecting rabbis than protecting children. This is both an indictment of Rabbi Bleich, and of the institution that pays his salary.*

[Please click on the Circumcision Controversy link below to see previous posts on this issue. As always, scroll down to the bottom of the new page and read the posts from bottom to top.]

*One might recall that another YU rabbi, Mordechai Willig, spent a considerable amount of effort protecting the now-convicted child molester, NCSY's Rabbi Baruch Lanner. In the process of doing this, Rabbi Willig abused his power while showing disregard for the safety of minors. He was outed and forced to apologize to Rabbi Lanner's victims and their families. But YU took no disciplinary action against him. Again, with vulnerable children facing possible death or maiming, a YU rabbi has spoken out – not in favor of the powerless victims, but to protect abusive rabbis. Hardly a track record for YU to be proud of.

Comments

[Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky RebbeGod.blogspot.com]

By the grace of G-d
Shalom everyone!
If 70% of adults have herpes and it's difficult to notice the infectious stage of it perhaps "to save the children" Reb Shmaryahu-the FailedMessiah along with other sages of Chelm some of whom unfortunatly have Rabbinic degrees or Phds will propose a federal law prohibiting parents / grandparents etc. from kissing their children or holding them without wearing the latex gloves for example.
(herpes is easily transmitted through skin-to-skin contact so if you are experiencing an outbreak, avoid kissing others and sharing utensils. ...
google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-26,GGLG:en&q=herpes+kissing )
Since in Shmaryah's understanding Torah law mandates this it's unclear why does he limit his efforts vainly trying to get the goverment to prohibit metzitzah be'peh .
As they say in Yiddish :
"It would be funny if the fools were not ours."
With respect and blessing.
Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky
617-372-2312
Moshiach Info Center International
Beis Moshiach Chabad Lubavitch Center of Greater Boston and Portland Oregon.
Yechi Yahweh Tsidkeinu!
Long Live the Rebbe-Almighty Forever and ever!

[Shmarya]

Because grandparents are not kissing an OPEN WOUND.

But I guess that's too deep for the sages of Lubavitch to grasp.

[Un-Orthodox Jew]

Ariel,

Your logic is something for the Eastern Parkway crowd, not for the normal Jews.
BTW, didn't your Rebbe promise Yitzchok Kaduri that he would live to see the Moshiach?
VAT HEPPENNED?

[Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky RebbeGod.blogspot.com]

B"H
Rav Kaduri saw the Rebbe King Moshiach...
It seems he believed that he is the Moshiach he would often atend various Mashichist events read the news...

[DK]

Ariel,

Your small corner of "Judaism" is proof that Jews for Jesus are successfully expanding their message. Congratulations on your hybrid faith. A very great role model you guys are.

Anyone who says Orthodox Jews are not influenced by Christian fundamentalism need only look at the title of your blog to see the truth laid bare.

DK

[Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky RebbeGod.blogspot.com]

B"H
They are not kissing an open wound but as i point out in the google link skin to skin contact also transmits herpes thus if we are talking about life and death no precaution is too great so i fully excpect you to post that grandparents should hug and kiss their kids.

[Un-Orthodox Jew]

Ariel,
You're an "open wound" to Judaism.

[Un-Orthodox Jew]

The letter below is being mailed this week to thousands of Orthodox Jewish households in Boro Park, Kensington and Flatbush. I am asking my readers to please copy the letter from this post and e-mail it to as many people as possible. Together, we can put a stop to this depravity.

WARNING-ATTENTION ALL OF JUDAISM

There is a chronic child molester in our midst. He is not in hiding nor is he being kept away from our children. Shockingly, he is a Rebbe in […] EDITED BY SITEOWNER [If this particular rabbi's accusers are not willing to sign their names to this letter, I will not print it, unless independent documentation of this rabbi's alleged misdeeds can be shown. This is not the place for unsourced allegations of abuse. But let me be clear – if you can bring real evidence, including real people to publicly stand behind that letter, I'll print that. Thanks. Shmarya.]

--
Posted by Un-Orthodox Jew to Un-Orthodox Jews at 1/29/2006 01:55:00 PM

[DK]

Ariel,

How about we compromise. Let's agree that granparents shouldn't suck their grandson's penis to show affection. Would that work for you?

[Un-Orthodox Jew]

Signatories to the UOJ letter to the Frum community:
Chaim Eliezer Stern
Moshe Shmuel Kalmanovitz
Yehoshua Finkel
Menachem Goldstein
Aron Rabinowitz

[Shmarya]

Thank you. Assuming these are real people in Brooklyn, please repost the entire letter. Stupidly, I forgot to save the part I deleted. Thank you.

[Isa]

Shmarya
If that letter is reposted blank out the name,
or you might (will certainly) get sued.
ISA

[sy]

To the Rabbi,

The main problem is that an eight day old baby immune system is not developed and getting the herpes virus can be deadly as opposed to when he child is older. In addition, the whole reason according to the Talmud for metzitza b'peh, is medical "to cleanse the wound." The Talmuld says it clearly. So now we know differently, I am sure the Talmud would say, it is forbidden to do metzitza b'peh since it can make the baby sick and there are more efficient way to cleanse the wound. This is really a no brainier.

[Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky RebbeGod.blogspot.com]

B"H
Sy, I'm aware of the reasons for it stated in the Talmud but there are also kabalistic reasons but ultimatly all of this is besides the point.
I grew up in a communist country which banned religion Judaism in particular bris-mila-circumcission was a criminalized one caould be charged with self mutilation or mutilating once child for doing so etc. and people went on self sacrafice and risked doing it anyway.
I was circumcized already after the fall of the soviet union when I was 13 learning in Yeshivah Torah Vodas in Kishinev Moldova without metzitza be peh by Rabbi Yitzhok Fischer Shlit"a the man in the center of this scandal he even sugested my Jewish name Ariel.
The issue is that if the goverment were to ban metzitza beh peh or any other Jewish ritual that many consider holy (rightly or wrongly) it will cause more tension more broken communitys and broken bones than simply letting the issue play it's own course.
What if tommorow there will be an opinion of doctors that suppose putting on teffilin is not good for the blood vesels and leads to increased risk of heart attacks or that spending hours in prayer Shabbos morning or eating cholnt is demaging for ones health? Would you want someone telling you to stop putting on teffilin pray shabbos morning or eat cholnt or face the penalty for violating some state of federal law?
What if tomorow the doctors decide that bad effects of wine are detrimental for public health and the goverment will pass the law against drinking wine (like it was done once already) will you like not being able to make kiddush on Shabbos? More people die from alchohol related problems than from herpes caused by metzitza be peh you know let's ban it.
When the goverment bans a jewish custom eventualy the goverment disapears but custom remains being from the former soviet union I'm witness to that.

[Un-Orthodox Jew]

The letter below is being mailed this week to thousands of Orthodox Jewish households in Boro Park, Kensington and Flatbush. I am asking my readers to please copy the letter from this post and e-mail it to as many people as possible. Together, we can put a stop to this depravity.

WARNING-ATTENTION ALL OF JUDAISM

There is a chronic child molester in our midst. He is not in hiding nor is he being kept away from our children. Shockingly, he is a Rebbe in Yeshiva […] Brooklyn, New York.

Rabbi […] knows of this Rebbe’s history of sexually molesting children. Rabbi […] refuses to remove this predator from his yeshiva. Specifically, Rabbi […] has been informed; repeatedly and from sources independent of each other; that Rabbi […] has sexually molested countless children during his long career around children.

Rabbi […] sexually molested children in Camp […]. Rabbi […] sexually molested children in Yeshiva […]. Rabbi […] sexually molested children in Camp […]. Rabbi […] spends his life around our children. It bears repeating that Rabbi […] is currently a Rebbe in Yeshiva […].

We have a problem. This is not to say that our wonderful community has more child molesters than other communities. We may even have substantially fewer. The problem is in our propensity to ignore the covering up of these horrendous incidents. Child molesters must be exposed and removed from our midst. Our children must not be subjected to molesters while in school. Rabbi […] must stop his unconscionable employment of this molester and his covering up of this threat. Rabbi […] must resign his position immediately. We can not rest until our children are safe from this scourge.

This mailing should not have been necessary. Both Rabbi […] and Rabbi […] were given advance copies of this letter and advised if Rabbi […] left Yeshiva […] immediately, this mailing would be stopped. Rabbi […] responded: “the matter has been taken care of” coupled with an offer to meet with his victims in person, one at a time. Rabbi […] responded: “I don’t think he is still a threat and I am responsible for the children” followed by “Anyone who doesn’t like it, doesn’t have to send their children to my yeshiva.” In short, neither of these Mechanchim deny the facts; they simply refuse to do the right thing.

We are writing to ask you to speak out and help bring an end to this nightmare. Please call Rabbi […] at 1-718-[…] and ask him to resign his position immediately. Please call Rabbi […] at 1-718-[…] and ask him to dismiss Rabbi […] immediately. Child molesters must be kept away from our children. Our children deserve no less.

[Shmarya]

TypePad is down and I can't get in to edit the above comment. Let me say the following:

1. I can find no mention of the above charges other than on the blog of Un-Orthodox Jew.

2. Un-OJ is apparently one of the people behind the above letter.

3. The Awarness Center has no information posted on either rabbi.

Therefore, I urge readers not to believe the allegations in the above letter. If you have a child or know of a child in that yeshiva, speak to the administration of the yeshiva regarding the allegations, and hear their side of the story. Do the same with the named rabbi. Then act based on the best information you can find.

The proper method of handling abuse is to bring it ot a beit din. If the beit din does not act (or acts to protect the abuser when there is real proof of the abuse) report that abuse to police and child welfare authorities.

Using blogs to "out" abusers is not the correct course of action.

[Shmarya]

I should also add that, if their is proof of abuse and a real and present danger of more abuse in the immediate future, the correct course of action to ake would be to go directly to the police and child welfare, skipping the beit din (which, sadly, will take a long time to act, if it acts at all).

[Un-Orthodox Jew]

Shmarya,
Please REMOVE the edited Mickey Mouse letter you put up on your board.
I'd rather have nothing up there than some silly looking censored nonsense.
A little blogger to blogger respect.
I certainly did NOT ask for your ideas on how to get rid of this well known sex abuser.
All conventional methods were blocked by bais din and some very sick "rabbis"
Remove the letter at once.

[DK]

Ariel, you wrote,

"What if tommorow there will be an opinion of doctors that suppose putting on teffilin is not good for the blood vesels and leads to increased risk of heart attacks?"

Oh yes, Ariel, a slippery slope indeed. We are surely slipping into secular totalitarianism by the medical estanlishment even as we speak. Stop them now before it's too late and they ban T'fillen along with wounded baby penis sucking. It's so the same idea...Oh please stop them... somebody...too...late...no...no...no...oy!

[David]

Shmarya,
I was sexually molested over a period of 2 years by Rabbi Yidi Kolko when I was a 7th and 8th grade (12 & 13 yrs old) talmid at Rabbi Lipa Margolies' Yeshiva Torah Vodaas of Flatbush and a camper those same years at Camp Agudah.
You may contact me in order to verify my claims.

[Shmarya]

And how would I do that? You haven't given me any contact information or even your last name.

What relationship exists or existed between Yeshiva Torah Vodaas of Flatbush and the main Torah Vodaas?

Shmarya,
There was no relationship between Margulies' YTV and the Mesivta T.V. They were 2 separate yeshivo's.

If you want to contact me, first speak to Elliot Pasik. If he ok's it, then I would be willing to speak to you.

[Shmarya]

I'm sorry, but I do not know who Elliot Pasik is.

wanna know the connection between the two? none. Margo lost the psak din and had to havbe name changed in 10 years. so it became torah temimah. David, you are not alone.

wanna know the connection between the two? none. Margo lost the psak din and had to havbe name changed in 10 years. so it became torah temimah. David, you are not alone.

[formerlyfrum]

Rabbi Yehuda Kolko

read the daily report
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/415306p-350953c.html