The Rebbe And The Menorah

Arch of Titus, Rome

Hanukka is fast approaching. A motzei Shabbat excursion to the grocery store brought me face to face with two shluchim (Chabad rabbis) of the younger generation, hard at work erecting a Hanukka display that will remain up through Hanukka. The centerpiece of the display is a menorah with straight diagonal branches, often mistakenly referred to as Rambam's menorah. (More on this below.)

I like both of these rabbis very much. I've known them since they were children. I know the work they do is often selfless. One has done innovative, successful programing – a rarity in these parts. But every time I see a "Rambam's menorah," I want to scream. And tonight was no exception.

I restrained myself somewhat and contented myself with pointing out a historical fact – the menorah in the Temple looked nothing like that. As a simple proof, I mentioned that coins have been found from the reign of Mattias Antigonus [see one to the left], the last Hasmonean king, who ruled just before Herod. These coins have the menorah on them, and the branches are curved, not straight.

The elder of the two answered my challenge by quoting the Rebbe: The menorah on those coins and on the Arch of Titus is not the Temple menorah – it is merely a second menorah, a copy, used for non-sacramental purposes in the Temple.

Right. This is the same mind that brought us a new "Jewish" version of Gosse's theory and who insisted that spontaneous generation really happens.

Well, there are a few problems (to put it mildly) with the Rebbe's thesis, not least among them is this – all representations of the menorah  contempraneous to the existence of the Temple show the menorah with curved arms. Further, in all of Jewish history, only two rabbis appear to have claimed anything different – the Rambam and Rashi. Both lived almost 1000 years after the Temple stood. Neither had any representation of a menorah that matched the Rebbe's understanding of their positions.

But take a look at the Rambam's own drawing of the menorah, and compare it to the Rebbe's version.

 
Rambam's drawing of the Temple menorah     The Rebbe's menorah (adapted for Hanukka)

The cups on the Rambam's drawing are at different heights and at different angles. In Rebbe's menorah,  each cup is at the same height and the same angle. (And of course there are other differences, as well.)

So here we have an entirely new version of the menorah not found anywhere else throughout Jewish history. Worse yet, the Rebbe claimed this was the "correct" version of the menorah, and the one found on the Hasmonean coin (minted by a king who was both a kohen and the high priest and who served in the Temple!) was incorrect.

Rabbi Seth Mandel has a long post on AishDas.org dealing with the shape of the menorah. In it, he explains convincingly that the Rambam's drawing was a schematic, and was not meant to be representative of the menorah itself:

[I]f the arms weren't exactly straight, why did the Rambam draw them
that way? Well, why did he draw the kaftorim as a circle? Because he
drew everything with a ruler, a compass and a protractor (much as an
electrical schematic drawing is done with straight lines). Note that all
the kaftorim are drawn not as free-form circles, but are perfectly round
(even though the real kaftorim were not). Similarly, the top of the
base, above the three legs, is a perfect arc clearly drawn with a
compass. The distances are also schematic: the space occupied by the
gavia', kaftor and perah above the base are one tefah, as the note on
the drawing next to them states, whereas the empty space above them and
below them are both two t'fahim, also clearly noted ("t'fahayim") on the
drawing, yet those latter spaces in the drawing are much less than the
space taken by the g'via', kaftor and perah.…

Now even in a schematic drawing, if the arms were semicircular arcs, as
they are on the Arch of Titus, the Rambam would have surely drawn them
that way, using a compass. But what if the arms were not semicircular,
but were curved somewhat? What, as a matter of fact, if they were like
the arms shown in a), the coins of Matitya Antigonos or the arms shown
in b), the drawing on the wall of the house discovered in the Old City
[conclusively dated to the end of the Second Temple era],
that were partially curved and partially straight or almost straight? I
would argue that in his schematic drawing, the Rambam would see nothing
wrong with drawing them with a ruler as a straight line. After all, as
he says, "my intent in this drawing is not that you should know [i.e. I
should draw] the exact form. Rather my intent is to show you the number
of the g'vi'im, the kaftorim and the p'rahim, and their placement, and
the length of places of the arms of the Menorah that are empty and that
of the places that have kaftorim and p'rahim, and its general
appearance."

Of course, one can also easily argue that the Rambam was simply mistaken, and did the best he could do with the information he had.

But what of the representation on the Arch of Titus? The base is wrong and their are other problems as well. Rabbi Mandel answers by quoting Rabbi Daniel Sperber, whose book on minhagim (Jewish customs) is very well regarded:

… [T]he base is two giant hexagons, the top one larger than the lower one,
with decorations on the side panels. Examination of the panels of the
hexagons shows that the central one on the upper hexagon has a picture
of two eagles holding a (laurel?) crown. To its left and right are
panels showing a ketos, a aquatic monster usually with a serpent body
and the head of a bird or other animal. In the lower hexagon are three
panels with various kete (plural of ketos). A ketos is called drakon by
Hazal; in the Mishna Avodah Zara 3:3 it shows that a drakon was suspect
of being a symbol of AZ. How would that get into the Temple? Even worse,
the eagle was the symbol of Imperial Rome, and as such was an anathema
to Jews longing to be free of Roman rule.

However, the picture cannot be simply an invention of a Roman artist.
The arms are are equidistant from each other, and the distance equals
the width of the arms (another universal characteristic of Jewish
sources), they all go up to an equal height, and even the ratio of the
distance from the base to the lower arms to the rest of the height
matches the ratio given by Hazal. And there are clear g'vi'im, kaftorim
and p'rahim on the arms. This must be a representation of the Menorah of
the Hekhal. So how can we explain the base?

R. Daniel Sperber gives the correct answer, IMHO. He notes that usually
a ketos has a nymph perched on its back, and scales on its neck, and
shows pictures of a very similar from a Roman temple in Didyma with such
a nymph. In e), there is no nymph and no scales on the neck. He quotes
the g'moro AZ 43a that a drakon that is osur has scales on its neck, and
the Tosefta in AZ that says "if the neck was smooth, it is muttar." This
evidence, that the base was made showing the symbol of Imperial Rome and
avoiding AZ, matches Herod the Great. He was put in his position, after
Matitya Antigonos, by the Roman, and Josephus in Antiquities of the Jews
tells us that he erected a great golden eagle over the gates of the
Temple, an act that angered the Jews. OTOH, he always was careful to
portray himself as King of the Jews and avoided any outright AZ. So, R.
Sperber concludes, it must have been Herod who put on the base. Why
would he have monkeyed around with the Menorah? Probably because shortly
before his reign the Parthians entered Y'rushalayim and plundered it.
The Menorah may well have been broken at its weakest point, its small
base, at that time, and Herod, whose mark was large construction
projects many of which were for the benefit of the Jews while at the
same time reminding everyone of Roman sovereignty (as he did in his
reconstruction of the BhM), would naturally have made a large new base,
for the good of the Jewish Temple but with Roman symbols.

So it is extremely probable that [it] was actually drawn from someone who
saw the Menorah as it was paraded through Rome in 71 and perhaps later,
wherever it ended up. But some of the exact details, like the exact
number of kaftorim, or the exact curve of the arms, is wrong, because
the sculptor no longer had the Menorah in front of him.

My Chabad friend also pointed out that Rashi holds the menorah is like the Rambam's drawing. Rabbi Mandel attempts to deal with Rashi (who also had no coins or seals or wall paintings to look at) this way:

I would also argue that Rashi's statement of alakson [diagonal] could also fit the drawings Medieval Jewish sources … it is inconceivable to me that rabbonim drawing pictures of the Menorah in the 14th Century would not have noted that Rashi disagrees.

I would simply argue that Rashi is mistaken, except that Mandel has a stong point – no one ever drew a menorah that matches the Rebbe's understanding of Rashi. Therefore, the Rebbe's understanding is mistaken.

As Mandel points out, history is against the Rebbe:

In summary, all depictions of the Menorah in the Hekhal, from Jewish and
Roman sources from the time of the [Temple] and the following couple of
centuries (as well as medieval Jewish sources) show the Menorah with
rounded arms. …

Menorah from 1st century Italy

In conclusion, I have argued that no one thought that the arms were
exactly straight; that the idea came into being only in the 20th Century
after the Rambam's drawing became common knowledge, but does not have a
basis in a careful reading of the Rambam and a comparison to Jewish
depictions ranging from the time of the Temple to centuries later.

Some have claimed the Rebbe set up the new Chabad menorah as a corporate symbol, for branding and messianic purposes. History would seem to support that claim.

Comments

[Chaim]

Why couldn't the Rambam have used his handy compass to draw the arms round, like he did for the base?

[Shmarya]

Because the arms were not round.

[Nachum Lamm]

Note that R' Mandel (he doesn't use his titles, but we should) also points out that the Rebbe claims without foundation that the menorah used on Chanukah must look like the one in the Mikdash.

I recall seeing some point that the Rebbe actually felt that setting up a menorah that looked like this had something to do with bringing Mashiach.

[Mitzvah Tanks of Redemption Special Fund - RebbeGod.blogspot.com/2005/12/mitzvah-tanks-of-redemption]

By the grace of G-d
Shalom every one!
Even Rav Shach of all people (who disagreed with the Rebbe on almost anything) agreed that the halocha is according to the Rambam and others who hold like this that the menorah has straight branches.
With respect and blessing.
Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky
617-372-2312
Chabad Lubavitch Moshiach Center Portland
Moshiach Info Center International
BostonChabad.com
Moshiach.WS
Yechi Yehovah Tsidkeinu!

[Steg (dos iz nit der šteg)]

Did he just say "Yehovah"?

ariel is a bit nuts

If you had a Jews for Jesus person come here and post what he believes you wouldn't blame the Jews for believing it, becuase they don't it's only one wacko that does, and his beliefs are not part of Judaism, the same thing whith ariel's beliefs

[Shmarya]

Ariel-

Rav Schach did not agree with the Rebbe's understanding of the Rambam.

[chaim]

shmarya you are so damb lame. is this really all you have to do with your life.? post anything and everything that is against the rebbe?, let me give you some words of advice, get married (eventhough i dont know which women would like you) have some kids and drink some beer because your life really sucks as i can see by your site.!!! have a good day and have a happy chanukah

[Chaim]

SR: "Because the arms were not round"

OK So they were not round, and not straight, what were they, square?

[Isa]

I have seen the Menorah up close by Hwy 100 and Minnetonka Blvd.
I beieve the reason the arms are straight is one can get steel square tubing and fabricate such a giant Menorah easily ONLY if the arms are straight. To create curved arms would be a machinist's nightmare. Yes it COULD be done but the cost would easily exceed 10 times the cost of a straight arm Menorah

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Mmmm, beer. L'chaim, Chaim.

[Shmarya]

Isa –

They're straight because the Rebbe said so.

[Shmarya]

Chaim –

"OK So they were not round, and not straight, what were they, square?"

Read the post. The curve did not follow a semicircular patter and was not regular, which is why it could not be drawn with a compass.

[Chaim]

Perfectly round with a compass would have been MUCH closer to the representation on the coin that you show.

[Chaim]

The menorah from Italy you show above consists of almost perfectly round arms. The Rambam could certainly have done it that way.

Maybe the compasses of Rashi's time coudn't draw these kinds of curves- the ones that could were lost when the Temple was destroyed. Either that, or maybe the curved ones aren't as aerodynamic and don't work on top of a 16-passenger van. (sarcasm alert!!!)

Debating this is silly. Shmarya's arguement is plausible (and pretty interesting, considering the frequency with which you see these things). It's pretty obvious that Rashi and Rambam were lacking in the information necessary to make an accurate judgement. With all due respect to these gedolim, it wouldn't be the only time. Let Chabad put up whatever menorah they want- just keep it off of public space.

[Dovid]

I just want to point out one thing. The Rebbe NEVER said that the round menorah is wrong/forbidden, (unlike what he said with regards to the luchos, which according to all opinions are square). In fact, there are several opinions from that era that the Menorah was round.

[Yosef]

chabad cannot be like others .
after all , they are a kat on their own , they have a sovereign , may be deceased , an army , tzivos hashem , their menora must be different .
they do not sell judaism but rather their own cult , with all it's trimmings .

[Paul Freedman]

everybody knows that pie r squared!

[rebeljew]

The Rambam's "straight arm" version is directly defendable in two ways:

1) The word "kaneh" in the chumash refers to straight beams. It is simply the direct meaning of the word.

2) There is nothing implying that they should curve the arms, how to curve them, nor would there be any reasoning to curve them.

So why do the Roman period representations of the menorah show curved arms? For the same reason the arch of Titus is an arch and not doorway. The Romans beautified everything with arches and curved lines. They considered this a beautified representation of the monorah. Just look at Roman art of the time. This picture got canonized later, but there is no authoritative source for the SOURCE of the curved arm representation.

Why any of this should affect the chanuka menora, I have no idea.

[Shmarya]

Rebel –

Can't be. All JEWISH sources also have curved branches. That includes Jewish sources from the time the Temple was still in use, including one from a Kohain Gadol and another from a house in the area of Jerusalem dominated by kohanim.

The Rebbe was wrong.

[EnoughDreck]

Get a life, Scotty boy, and don't forget to donate a kidney or at least a few kidney beans to Baruch Schmeggege.

[rebeljew]

The only reason we would have to believe that the arms were curved are contemporary pictoral representations. There is no textual or philosophical reason to believe the arms were curved. There is no "thou shall make the arms curved". Not only that, the opposite is implied as the text seems to demand straight arms and there is no halachic reason to curve them, nor even a recorded instruction on what would be a legal curved arm and what would be too much or too little. All we have is some pictures from the same period.

I am proposing that it is easier to explain the pictures than to explain why the lack of halachic instruction. Remember, Jewish art of any type would be heavily influenced by roman artists. All of the buildings, doorways, windows use arches and curved lines. The Jewish sources are not trying to build a picture to teach us halacha as the Rambam is. These are, in effect, doodles.

This only discusses the arms. It has nothing to do with the Rebbe's kvetch on the Rambam, only on the Rambam himself.

The same is true of the Tzitz. One of the Chazal claimed to see "Kadosh L'Hashem" on the tzitz, written on one line. Halacha says it should be written on two lines. So, the Rebbe pointed out, correctly, that representations of the time do not compose a "proof". It may have been that this was a decoration from a shul and not a real tzitz. Still, halachically we can use it l'kula (since we cannot prove it is not THE tzitz) but the din l'chatchila is to write it two lines, and other logic can explain the artifact.

If yoou could find a contemporary source that says that there was a machlokes and that it was made with curved arms, then you might have something.

[rebeljew]

David above points out another example of my point here. Representations show the luchos as being flat and having rounded tops, yet all early halachic sources imply that they were cubes.

[Shmarya]

Quite a stretch. EVERY representation of the menorah, including in HALAKHIC literature, has curved branches, except for the Rambam's drawing. And the Rambam's drawing won't work as a menorah – see the tilted cups.

You write off dozens of rishonim and achronim as well as all historical evidence in order to kasher Mendel Schneerson. Better to write off Mendel Schneerson.

[S.]

A post about what Ramban did when he was faced with historical evidence that called into question his own understandings of Tanakh.

[Tzfania]

This issue has been discussed at length in Kovetz Ohr Leyisrael Monsey two or three years ago. (I did not read the comments here, I just want to refer all those interested in this issue to read those issues.)

[Dovid]

Shmarya, care to comment on Rebeljew's point on the fact that all (except for an old print of the Shalo"h) pictures/art of the luchos are round, while it is clear from the Torah that the were SQUARE... This must show something, art cannot be used when it comes to Halacha!

[Shmarya]

The luchot (tablets) were not extant in the Second Temple. People had not seen those things for hundreds and hundreds of years, and then only a few people may ever have seen them since Sinai, because the were kept in the aron and not taken out. In other words, the menorah was a) extant at the time the coin was minted and the other art was made and, b) was seen by many people as it was carried to Rome. All depections of contemporaneous people who SAW the menorah have curved branches. RebelJew is mistaken.

[Shmarya]

I should also add the menorah was seen by many people after the Maccabees captured Jerusalem and liberated the Temple.

[Nachum Lamm]

In any event, there is no depiction of the luchot from the time of the second Bayit. The first time they appear with round tops is in Christian sources from the Middle Ages, and Jews copied that.

In any event, we certainly do rely on eyewitness views. Rashi, for example, sometimes says that in terms of what things in the Mikdash, we listen to Josephus, because he, unlike almost every Tanna in the Mishna, saw the keilim with his own eyes. (He was a Kohen.)

Oh, and he says the arms were round.

[Shmarya]

Nachum –

Another very strong point. Thanks!

[sina ahin sina aher ober seichel darf men hoben]

Questions on the Rebbe's view have been printed in Ohr Yisroel Vol. 5 Issue 2 (18) by Yisroel Yehudah Yakab. In the same issue R' Nachum Greenwauld published a wonderful response. In the following issue there were numerous letters-to-the-editor defending the Rebbe's shitah. Also see a letter that R' Reuvain Brim sent the Rebbe (Heichal Menachem Vol. 1 p. 270) with additional proofs to the Rebbe's shitah, but some questions as well.

In honor of Chanukah here's a brief synopsis of the discussion.(All images are copyright.)

Question: The Menorah on Arch of Titus has semi-circular branches, is there any proof that it isn't a true representation?

Answer (Based on the footnotes in the Sichah, and other sources): Before we answer this question, let's take a closer look at the Arch of Titus:

The Arch before it was renovated:

Inside view (notice the Menorah...)

After the renovations:

Closeup (This picture is from a model in the Migdal Dovid Museum)

As you can see in this picture,
1) this Menorah has a flat base (the real Menorah stood on 3 legs);
2) it has a hexagon base which is a non-Jewish symbol;
3) it has images of shkatzim uremasim on sides of the hexagon including a sea-dragon! The Gemarah in Avodah Zarah says that if one finds a vessel with a sea-dragon embossed on it, it is probably Avodah Zarah, and should disposed.
4) This Menorah lacks the Gevi'im, Kaftorim & Perachim which are mentioned in Parshas Terumah! (Goblets, Knobs and Flowers)

Question: The Sefer Ma'aseh Choshev says that according to the Rambam the branches were round! The Ma'aseh Choshev explains that the 7 branches represented the 7 galgalim (Midrash) which are round, therefore it stands to reason that the branches were round as well?

Answer: The reason the MC says that the branches were round is because "the RMBM in Yad Hachazakah doesn't write that branches must be diagonal"; it is clear that he did not see the RMBM's drawing. RE the Galgalim: Everyone agrees that the middle branch was straight, according to the MC there were only 6 round branches - it was 1 short! The Midrash is refering to the "neiros" - the seven round cups that held the oil.

Question:But throughout history most Menorahs (since the time of the Geonim!) were drawn with round branches, did they all copy the Arch of Titus?

Answer (N.G.): By such things, Kol Hameshaneh yado al ha'elyonah: The fact that Rashi and the Rambam went against the tide speaks volumes!

Question:
1) It takes skill to draw a circle, maybe the RMBM drew the lines straight because it was easier that way?! (-Actual question in Ohr Yisroel!)
2) The RMBM writes clearly that his sole intention with this drawing is to show the amount of gevi'im, gaftorim, & perachim and their placement, but "not to actually represent the design of the goblets etc." So how can we learn anything else from this drawing?

Answer (N.G.): 1) Yneed not look further than the bottom of the Menorah to see that the RMBM had no problem drawing circles ... (This was N.G.'s best line)

2) The RMBM's son writes clearly that the "branches of the menorah extended "beyosher" like by father has drawn, and not "be'igul" as others have drawn. However you will translate the words "beyosher" and "be'igul" (Yakab understood that "beyosher" means that the branches were vertically aligned) we see al kol ponim that we can learn about the design of the branches from the RMBM's drawing.

Question: The Bechor Shor and the Chizkuni write that the purpose of the goblets was to catch the oil which would sometimes spill from the lamps. This would only work if the branches were round (see picture), the oil would spill into the goblets that were directly beneath them,

but if the branches were diagnal, the cups would not be directly beneath the lamps but slighly inward (see picture), and the oil would spill onto the floor!

Answer (N.G.): Oil, unlike water, would naturally stick to the surface of the branch and would run down towards the middle, and drip staight into the goblet. This has been tried and tested! In addition, the Bechor Shor states that the goblet which was placed on the middle stem of the Menorah was there to capture the oil which would overflow from the upper goblets, now according to the view that the branches were diagnal this would work -- upon overflowing the oil would run down the branch until the next stop. But if the branches were semi-circular the oil would fall to the floor as soon as the branch started to curve. Yes oil is sticky, but not sticky enough to flow upside-down... An experiment has confirmed this to be true -- so adrabe the Bechor Shor is another proof that the branches were straight!

* * *

I will conclude this post with a thought from R' Reuvain Brim (Heichal Menachem ibid) with a proof from the Posuk in Terumah itself (besides for the famous diyuk from the word "Konim"): The Torah uses the words "Vkaftor tachas shnei hakanim", i.e. there was a goblet at each point where two branches met with the stem of the Menorah.

If the branches were semi-circular the goblet was not "tachas shnei hakanim" but rather beside them! (see two pictures up). [Chazal say that there was a tefach chalak (1 handbreath of empty space) between each pair of branches, since each goblet was a tefach itself the branches could not be affixed to the stem itslef, only to the goblets. The only way it woudl be possible to fulfil the requirement of "tachas shnei hakanim" is if the branches were attached to upper half of the goblet, and they would extend upward, not to the sides.

NOW WE UNDERSTAND, we Titus chose not to use the real Menorah. Since the branches needed to extend from the upper half of the goblet they needed to be very thing (1/2 tefach). Since the Arch was intended to show the Roman's strenght they chose to reproduce a Menorah that was more pleasing to the eye (especially when engraved in stone).

[Shmarya]

None of what you write answers the questions. Clearly, you do not understand the basic question, let alone the answer.

1. The arms are NOT semicircles. But they are curves. Processes this.

2. ALL representations of the menorah FROM THE TIME OF THE TEMPLE have CURVED BRANCHES.

3. The Rambam's menorah can NOT work as represented (see above) but it can work as a schematic.

4. The Rebbe's menorah is not the same as the Rambam's drawing.

5. Mendel Schneerson was wrong.

[brian Kresge]

Excellent research and all that.

I think we should defer to whatever Pottery Barn does with their menorah.

[Ariel Sokolovsky RebbeGod.blogspot.com]

By the grace of G-d
Shalom everyone!
Shmaryahu you seem to be deriving particular pleasure imagining you can prove G-d wrong...
There were two angels who had similar desire to prove G-d wrong the result was they "fell" to earth and later "fell" moraly even lower than humans did and were punished by being "imprisoned" under "7 black mountains" till the end of the world to await their rectification may be you are "related" to them...:-)
Freilechn Chanukah everybody!

No rishonim except Rambam have a drawing! None describe round Menorah! It's just peoples imagination.
BTW Scott - the diagonal Menorah really is your type of deal - different then commonly thought.

Oh, when are you going to post that the sea didn't split?

No oil miracle, Gemmara made it up???!!! If anything, discuss why Chnukah is only mentioned in Mishna in terms of destruction. And why do we light candles? And when is the Bracha (Lehadlik ner...Chanukh) from? Start saving up to graduate from am ha'aretz to apikores!

[Shmarya]

Try working on your reading comprehension skills. Rishonim do describe the menorah. It looks nothing like the Rebbe's.

The bracha is the same type of bracha we make for Yom Tov. All Jewish holidays have candlelightings. Hanukka is in part a replacement for the Succot the Jews missed because of the Greeks. That is where the bracha comes from.

[Eliyahu haCohen]

For your information, there is ancient stone-vessel depicting an ancient form of the menorah with straight lines and not curves.
This stone-vessel has 3333 years old.
This confirms what Rambam has stated about the correct Menorah.

[DC]

The so-called sea dragon on the base of the Titus menorah, are in fact, Cherubim and Seraphim as would befit temple decoration. Proof of this are the Jewish translation of Hebrew scriptures. The word Hebrew word seraphim was translated to the Greek word Drakon.

[shmariasucks]

you think the rambam, rashi and the rebbe, who were clearly geniouses, didnt do a more thorough analisis than the poor idiocy you posted before voicing their opinions???

[Tzipah Wertheimer]

I just accidentally landed on your site. I must say that it is very mean and distasteful. I'm not sure how you could post such awful things about other Jews know to be upright and selfless. It's total sinacs chinam - which is baseless hatred of other Jews.

This type of hatred is poison (not to mention propaganda) for the Jewish people, please watch what you put out there.

You also have links to Aish HaTorah - Im sure such a Torah organization would not want to have an official relationship to this site.

What is your connection to Aish HaTorah?

Please remember that what we let leave our mouthes (and keyboards, by extension) does matter.

[Shmarya]

Yes, I realize the truth is difficult for you to confront.

As for the Aish links, it is perfectly legal and proper to link to sites one disagrees with and to explain those disagreements. I would give you a current haredi Torah learning example of this but I can't, because that level of honesty seems missing from the haredi world.

[Art Mensch]

The Menorah mentioned by the Rambam refers to the original one as described in Terumah which was in the first BHM. The curved arm menorahs seen on coins and other places are most likely from a later date. Besides Rambam had no trouble drawing the arc on the base and the round portions of the arms so why would he not be able to draw circular arms.

[Shmarya]

Schematic.

Look it up.

[Yoellah Yuhudah]

What were the original meaning of 7 lights on the manorah?

[Jay]

I'm struggling to see your point of how the Rebbe's menorah is supposed to be a replica of the menorah in the Beis Hamikdash... It says in halachah that you are not allowed to make an exact replica of the menorah that was in the Beis Hamikdash, so your argument there would fall through! The only thing that the picture of the Shliach's menorah is showing, is that the menorah had straight arms rather than curved. Let's just say that someone else was agreeing with the Rambam's opinion of the shape of the menorah, why should you care? At the end of the day, we have free choice as to whose opinion we can follow. When you set out to target the Rebbe, you are not only doing that, but you are targeting people's beliefs and those people themselves. I don't see anybody writing up pages denouncing Shabbatai Tzvi or other people who caused great unrest in Judaism as a whole. People look to the Rebbe for a way of life, for hope, for advice, and you sit here telling people - whose only reason for still being alive is the Rebbe - hat their whole life is useless. Even if you believe what you write, you might be hurting somebody else, just to get yourself heard, which is no a Jewish way of life. We are all Jews and to hurt somebody else because of our own problems is not something we should be doing!

[Shmarya]

The Rambam's drawing is a schematic. The Rebbe – an engineer, no less – ignores this and tries to take the Rambam's drawing literally. He then tries to make this warped vision the halakha for all Jews.

I don't see anybody writing up pages denouncing Shabbatai Tzvi or other people who caused great unrest in Judaism as a whole.

1. Shabbatai Tzvi died almost 350 years ago. He has few active followers today.

2. Books, scholarly papers and, yes, websites have been and are published that deal with Shabbatai Tzvi's issues.

People look to the Rebbe for a way of life, for hope, for advice, and you sit here telling people - whose only reason for still being alive is the Rebbe - hat their whole life is useless.

So, back when Shabbatai Tzvi was alive and giving 'prophesy,' it would have been very, very wrong to tell people – who, after all, had only one reason to live, the 'messiah, Shabbatai Tzvi – that Shabbatai Tzvi was wrong?

Please.

[Rashi Truth]

Rashi did not hold the arms were straight - I refer you to Ma'aseh Choshev.

If that is not enough, I have seen early Rashi manuscripts with diagrams (not in Rashi's hand but very soon after his lifetime) with the Menorah with rounded arms coming out at an angle from the body of the Menorah. The arms are NOT semicircles. I would also refer you to the Ib'n Ezra who states how they appeared. Mathematically, such shapes would have been the most stable for the task of remaining at a level height whatever weight of oil was being held up - this would not be possible if straight arms.

In any event, I do not believe that the Menorah of the Rambam could remain in shape due to the shape, softness of pure gold and weight of oil. By the way, in the Rambam's own hand by his diagram, in Arabic, the Rambam states that this should not be taken as the actual shape!

[Shmarya]

Interesting points. I don't think facts or logic will change Chabadniks' minds, though.

[Rashi Truth]

I am a Chabadnik and have challenged their views on many occasions and only get (not surprisingly) garbled responses.

As it happens, the Teimonim followed the Ramban's view initially but subsequently added vertical "lamps". There was a problem with straight arms: firstly, none can be parallel (Tosephos calculates the width of the Menorah, 12 tefochim, which results in each arm being a slightly different angle, and secondly, (and I am unsure of the source) the arms are not only on one level but all parallel at the top.

Interestingly, a widely available set of Chumoshim (influenced by Chabad) originally had a diagram with a straight armed Menorah - subsequent prints now show straight arms - with - vertically parallel "lamps"!

[Chaim]

Dear Mr. Rashi Truth,

please review this article carefully before you use the Maase Choishev as your sole source.

www.chabad.org/148170

Shabbat Shalom!

[Raanan B. Aberman]

Chillul Hashem. This site is nothing more than distasteful rantings. Why do we waste our time with this non-sense? In the time it takes us to rant, dishonor, and show disrespect to others we could be inspiring others with Torah Judaism instead. There are Jews among us with little or no knowledge of Judaism and an entire world would like to mislead them, what good are any of us if we cant be an example?

[Daviyd ben-Av'raham]

It seems to make sense from archaeology and Torah, that the arms would not have been perfectly straight, because the Menorah was said to look like an almond tree.

The thing that confuses me, is that here, you are not talking about the Temple Menorah, but a Chanukiyah. It does not matter what it looks like, as long as it has eight or nine candles. Further, they've built a new Temple Menorah in Yisroel, and it has curved arms.

[Apostate]

salvia palaestina

[Ron]

The icon of Chabad is its Crucifix in the form of an angluar Menorah.

[Brierialobcic]

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N: Make an impact on, which simply places a very recent light source upon it. So now counseling ? guys go through early ejaculation?
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Thus really the specification of uncontrollable premature ejaculation could be an wherewithal to lag time male climax to the point where you'll find it mutually wanted just for both partners.
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To make sure that looks one of the most significant what transpires for a man who is getting gry along these lines.
N: Now, potentially there is whatever that one is capable of doing to rotate this all?
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[Brisbane Fun]

Ariel I guess is little bit crazy