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November 28, 2005

Chabad Rears Its Anti-Zionist Head: Sharon "False Messiah," Do NOT Pray For State, "We do not believe in the rule of the heretics, and disregard their laws."


"We do not believe in the rule of the heretics, and disregard their laws."

The Jerusalem Post and Ynet are reporting Rabbi Sholom Dovber Wolpe, the most popular Chabad rabbi in Israel, has published a new book arguing against Religious Zionism. The book, based on the Rebbe's teachings, is creating quite a stir in Israel. Rabbi Wolpe, deemed a "rebel" by "official" Chabad for his open endorsement of the late Rebbe's "messianship," is also planning a museum based on the Yad VaShem Holocaust Memorial Museum to commemorate what he calls "Sharon's destruction of the Jewish communities in Gaza and the evil people who took part in that crime against humanity". Rabbi Wolpe's "theology" is mirrored by another wildly popular Israeli Chabad rabbi, Yitzhak Ginsburgh, who has been arrested several times for incitement.

The Jerusalem Post report starts here. (Ynet follows at the bottom of the post.)

In Between Light and Dark, Wolpe states, in an I-told-you-so way, that the disengagement proved Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the last Chabad-Lubavitch rebbe, was right about rejecting Zionism as a way of hastening the messianic era.…

Wolpe was instrumental in organizing anti-disengagement demonstrations before the Gaza pullout. Two weeks ago Wolpe organized a rally under the slogan 'we won't forgive, we won't forget' that drew thousands to the Jerusalem Convention Center [Binyanei Haumah].

"If this is redemption how could something so horrible happen?" asked Wolpe rhetorically. "The disengagement is God's way of saying that only the messiah, not the state will bring redemption."…

Rabbi Yehoshua Magnus, a spokesman for Rabbi Avraham Shapira, one of religious Zionism's most senior and respected spiritual leaders, said that Shapira and his many followers have not budged in their belief that the state of Israel has inherent holiness.…

Magnus said that although Shapira appeared on the same stage during a post-disengagement rally with Rabbi Yitzhak Ginzberg, another Chabad rabbi who rejects the religious Zionist idea that the state is a vehicle for redemption, he opposed Chabad's anti-Zionist theology. "For Rabbi Shapira the state is a religious entity."

Arel Cohen, secretary for Rabbi Zalman Melamed, rabbi of Beit El and a staunch opponent of disengagement, said that Wolpe's and Ginzberg's ideas are rejected by even the most extreme religious Zionist settlers.

"Rabbi Melamed always makes a clear differentiation between the state, which is a vessel that God, in His incredible loving kindness, gave us to bring the redemption, and the government, which is full of evil people. We don't thing we should be throwing the baby out with the bathwater," he said.

Melamed agreed to appear with Ginzberg and Wolpe at demonstrations under the banner 'we won't forgive [perpetrators of the disengagement], we won't forget' because, explained Cohen "Rabbi Melamed thinks they have a healthy way of thinking.

"They don't have the sickness some people have of hugging soldiers who come to kick you out of your house," said Cohen referring to more moderate religious Zionist rabbis such as Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, who have been attacked by Melamed for not encouraging religious soldiers to refuse IDF orders to evacuate Gaza.…

Yigal Amitai, a Yitzhar spokesman, said … while Chabadniks believe that only the rebbe can bring redemption, religious Zionists believe that a Jewish state, perhaps not this one, will eventually help usher in the messianic era.

Rabbi Yehuda Rubin, a Chabad emissary in Elon Moreh, a settlement, like Yizhar, that is located near Shechem, said that he read and agreed with Wolpe's book.

"But I won't put it in my synagogue library. It would only make people angry."

Rubin said that Chabad Hassidim oppose much of religious Zionism's theology.

"The rebbe prohibited his emissaries and Hassidim from saying the part in the prayer for the state of Israel that talks about Israel being the 'beginning of the burgeoning redemption'. He said this was a dangerous belief because it fools people into thinking that we don't need a messiah. He likened it to believing that darkness is light."

Still, for tactical reasons Rubin said he refrained from discussing the rebbe's views on these issues with residents of Elon Moreh unless he was specifically asked.

Wolpe said he has not decided yet whether he would translate his book into English.

"The rebbe told me twenty years ago that the time was not ripe to translate what he says against Zionism and the state of Israel into foreign languages. He did not want goyim to know that he talked badly against other Jews. "It gives strength to evil forces."

In the meantime, while he decides whether to translate his new book, Wolpe is keeping busy. He is raising money for a museum modeled after the Yad VeShem Holocaust Memorial that would commemorate what he calls "Sharon's destruction of the Jewish communities in Gaza and the evil people who took part in that crime against humanity".

Rabbi Wolpe's continued misuse of the Holocaust is troubling, as is the acceptance on the hard right (Chabad included) of the Disengagement=Holocaust, Sharon=Hitler theology he popularizes. It has been condemned in the strongest terms by Yad VaShem. Yet Rabbi Wolpe persists.

He also endorses violence against the State and the army (see the Ynet article below) and labels Prime Minister Sharon – whom he equates with Haman, the arch-enemy of the Jewish people – a "false messiah"

Rabbi Wolpe asks: "If this is redemption how could something so horrible happen?" asked Wolpe rhetorically. "The disengagement is God's way of saying that only the messiah, not the state will bring redemption."

So, why not say this, Rabbi Wolpe? "If this is redemption how could something so horrible happen? The Rebbe's death is God's way of saying that the Rebbe was not the messiah, and we know only the messiah can bring the redemption. It is time for us to move on."

But, of course logic (and truth) have nothing to do with Rabbi Wolpe's – or Chabad's – theology. Period, end of story.

Ynet's coverage begins here:

Rabbi: Disengage from State

In new book, Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpe says Israel should be replaced with ‘true Kingdom of David,’ calls on followers to refrain from praying for Jewish state’s wellbeing. ‘We are now in exile,’ he says
By Efrat Weiss

Rabbi_sholom_dovber_wolpe_2A prominent Jewish messianist has called for religious Jews to disengage from the State of Israel due to the evacuation of Jewish communities in the Gaza Strip last summer.

In a new book entitled "Between Light and Darkness," Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpe, a leader of the Chabad Chassidic sect that believes its chief rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the messiah, says religious Jews should view the secular government as an "administrative body, like the British government who controlled Israel before the country’s establishment.

Wolpe also says, "The religious Zionist public should prove that the State is unholy, and cannot serve as a means for achieving salvation. It must not pray for the country's wellbeing. We are now in exile and are waiting for the kingdom of the house of David."

Wolpe's call represents a sharp change from traditional Chabad-Lubavich thinking and match similar calls by some segments of the national-religious
community to disengage from the State in reaction to the Gaza disengagement. While Chabad, like most ultra-orthodox groups, has always been reticent about secular Zionism, group members serve in the army and have rejected insular approach of other orthodox groups in favor of engaging the secular world in order to encourage Jews to observe the mitzvoth, or commandments.

Sharon a 'false Messiah'

The cover of "Between Light and Darkness" carries a picture of the lit Temple's Menorah, and underneath it a darkened picture of the Knesset's building.

In the book itself, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is referred to as a "false Messiah" and as Haman, the historic nemesis of the Jewish people.

The bulk of the book is dedicated to the disengagement plan and to the uncertainties it spurred within the religious Zionist public.

"So many prayers were said from the bottom of the heart in the last year, in a bid to prevent the eviction and destruction," Wolpe writes. "The heart must wonder, why did God do this to this land? How is it possible that such a wicked man like the prime minister was able to jump over so many political hurdles, until he achieved his goal, the crime of the withdrawal" he asks, and answers:

"It is we that gave him the power. We determined that him, his state and his government are the beginning of our salvation. We blessed him before an open bible every Saturday. With such powers, it is no wonder that the false messiah storms forward without stopping, while taking his devotees and the rest of the Israeli people down to the abyss with him."

‘Replace Israel with true Kingdom of David’

According to Wolpe, the pullout was a sign from God that there is no relation between the existence of the democratic state and salvation, and that the religious public should therefore cease to believe in the holiness of the State and its institutions.

Referring to the religious Zionist teens who forcefully attempted to prevent the disengagement, Wolpe writes that "the Orange youth prays only for one thing: That the current rule, which is called 'the State of Israel' is abolished and replaced with the true Kingdom of David."

In the post-pullout period, Wolpe's ideas are not a rare sight among the rightist public. In a conference held in Jerusalem a few days ago, the participants wholeheartedly supported the principles expressed in the book, and thousands danced to the words of the song, "we do not believe in the rule of the heretics, and disregard their laws."


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"The rebbe prohibited his emissaries and Hassidim from saying the part in the prayer for the state of Israel that talks about Israel being the 'beginning of the burgeoning redemption'."

This implies that Chabad says the rest of the prayer which, of course, they don't.

"Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is referred to as a 'false Messiah'"

Pot, meet kettle.

I bet the menorah on his cover has straight arms.

Finally I get it. I've been trying to assemble the whole picture in my mind ever since I spent 3 weeks in Israel back in '03. Who ARE these rude anti-social bigots who roam Israel in black?

Our guide was an observant Jew who fought in the war of '73. He wouldn't tell us much but obviously held these folks in low regard. I guess he did not want to speak ill of other Jews.

But little by little the picture has been coalescing in my mind. Now I see the whole image. As a Messianist myself I can understand how these folk can hate the secular world and despise those who do not eagerly await the Messiah but advocating the overthrow of the government is irresponsible and against the Torah in my view.

If their views are of G-d than they will eventually dominate the society and win out. Revolution is not how G-d works. To be leaches as they now are, both in Israel and the US, proves to me that they are indeed not of G-d but only of themselves. And a fleshly lot they surely are.

I know Rabbi Wolpe. He is a great Talmud scholar. He is making the point that the founding of the state is not the same as the beginning of the redemption. Witness what is going on in Israel today.As to the comment that Sharon is wicked, its appropiate for a man who expelled 9000 loyal citizens from their own homes.

Forgive me if I am incorrect, but wasn't it to Rabbi Wolpe that the Rebbe said he was being "marchik the geulah"?

Guess he ain't that much of a chassid.

No. The Rebbe said saying the founding of the "state" of Israel is the beggining of the Redemption, THAT is "marchik the geulah".

By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
What Rabbi Wolpe is saying is grounded in Dvar Hashem (words of G-d) - halocha (Jewish Law)...
If you guys would turn of your Zionist (as in "American Jew who gives money to British Jew to bring Polish Jew to Palestine ... Edmund DeRothchild)" knee jerk reaction
and think rationaly for a moment it's more fantastic to believe that the Israeli state G-d created thru the hands of Zionists is the begining of redemption as opposed to temporary solution after the Holocaust and also a test of faith than to believe what is writen in Daniel 7 :
reprinted from Chabad.org

Judaica Press Complete Tanach

Daniel - Chapter 7
With Rashi's Commentary
1. In the first year of Belshazzar, the king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream, and the visions of his mind [while asleep] on his bed; then he wrote the dream and said the beginnings of the matters.
then he wrote the dream Then [he wrote the dream] and told the beginnings of the matters.
2. Daniel raised his voice and said: I saw in my vision during the night, and behold the four winds of the heavens were stirring up the Great Sea.
and behold [as translated,] and behold.
the four winds of the heavens were stirring up, etc. four blowing winds coming from the four directions of the world and waging war with the Great Sea and stirring it up.
3. And four huge beasts were coming up out of the sea, each one different from the other.
And four beasts [as translated,] and four beasts.
each one different from the other [as translated,] each one different from the other.
4. The first one was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle, until its wings were plucked and it was taken from the earth, and it stood on feet like a man, and the heart of a mortal was given it.
The first one was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle It was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle; that is the kingdom of Babylon, which was ruling at that time, and so did Jeremiah see it (4:7): “A lion has come up from its thicket,” and he says also (48:40): “like an eagle he shall soar.”
until its wings were plucked Its wings were plucked, which is an allusion to its downfall
and it was taken from the earth an expression of being removed from the earth, an allusion to the curtailment of the kingdom from the world.
and the heart of a mortal Aram. וּלְבַב אֶנָשׁ, an expression of weakness, like (Psalms 9:21): “Let the nations know that they are forever mortal men (אֶנוֹשׁ)”.
5. And behold another second beast, resembling a bear, and it stood to one side, and there were three ribs in its mouth between its teeth, and so did they say to it, 'Get up, eat much meat.'
another [as translated,] another.
second that emerged second from the sea.
resembling a bear This represents the kingdom of Persia, which will reign after Babylon, who eats and drinks like a bear and is enwrapped in flesh like a bear.
resembling a bear It is spelled לְדֹב [without a “vav,”] like דִיבָא, the Aramaic for זְאֵב, a wolf, for the kingdom of Persia was also called a wolf, as it is said: (Jer. 5:6): “Therefore a lion smote them, a wolf of the deserts spoils them.”
and it stood to one side and it stood to one side, indicating that when the kingdom of Babylon terminates, Persia will wait one year, when Media will reign.
and there were three ribs in its mouth Aram. וּתְלָת עִלָעִין בְּפֻמַּהּ, three ribs. Our Sages explained that three provinces were constantly rebelling against it [i.e., Persia] and making peace with it; sometimes it would swallow them and sometimes spit them out. That is the meaning of “in its mouth between its teeth,” sometimes outside its teeth, sometimes inside (Kid. 72a), but I say that the three עִלָעִין are three kings who will rise from Persia: Cyrus, Ahasuerus, and Darius who built the Temple.
much meat [as translated,] much meat.
6. After this, I saw, and behold another one, like a leopard, and it had four wings of a bird on its back, and the beast had four heads, and dominion was given it.
four wings… four heads They are the four rulers to whom Alexander of Macedon allotted his kingdom at his death, as is written in the book of Joseph ben Gurion (Book 3, ch. 14), for this third beast is the kingdom of Antiochus, and it is called נָמֵר because it issued decrees upon Israel [which were] spotted (מְנֻמָּרוֹת) and varied one from the other.
and dominion was given it [as translated,] and dominion was given it.
7. After this, I saw in the visions of the night, and behold a fourth beast, awesome and dreadful and exceedingly strong, and it had huge iron teeth. It ate and crushed, and trampled the rest with its feet, and it was different from all the beasts that were before me, and it had ten horns.
in the visions of the night on another night. The first three he saw on one night, and this one on another night, because it is equal to them all. In Leviticus Rabbah (13:5).
and it had… iron teeth [as translated,] iron teeth.
and crushed It crushed and ground finely.
and… the rest what it left over from its eating.
and… ten horns Aram. וְקַרְנַיִן עֲשַׂר. The angel explained to him that these are the ten kings who would ascend [the throne] of Rome before Vespasian, who would destroy the Temple.
8. I looked at these horns and behold another small horn came up among them, and three of the first horns were plucked out before it, and behold eyes like human eyes were on this horn, and a mouth speaking arrogantly.
and behold Aram. וַאֲלוּ, like וַאֲרוּ, an expression of “behold.”
speaking arrogantly words of arrogance. That is Titus, about whom the Rabbis, of blessed memory, said (Gittin 56b) that he blasphemed and berated and entered the Heichal with brazenness.
9. I was looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days sat; His raiment was as white as snow, and the hair of His head was like clean wool; His throne was sparks of fire, its wheels were a burning fire.
until thrones were set up Thrones were set up and established to sit in judgment, one for judgment for the nations of the world and one for charity for Israel.
and the Ancient of Days sat The Holy One, blessed be He, was sitting in judgment on this kingdom and on those before it, who provoked Him and oppressed His children.
as white as snow to whiten the iniquities of His people.
and the hair of His head was like clean wool He cleanses Himself of the merits that the nations have before Him, and He pays them all their reward in this world. In Lev. Rabbah.
of fire [as translated,] of fire.
a burning fire [as translated,] a burning fire.
10. A river of fire was flowing and emerging from before Him; a thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand ten thousands arose before Him. Justice was established, and the books were opened.
was flowing and emerging [as translated,] was flowing and emerging.
serve Him i.e., the Ancient of Days.
justice was established The judgment is established before Him.
and the books were opened The books were opened; the book of the transgressions and the evils that they committed.
11. I saw then from the sound of the arrogant words that the horn spoke, I looked until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to a flame of fire.
from the sound of the arrogant words From the sound of the haughty words that the horn was speaking, the wrath of the Ancient of Days was aroused.
until the beast was slain and its body was destroyed and given [as translated,] and its body was destroyed.
to a flame of fire to a flame of fire; this refers to Jacob’s fire etc.
12. But as for the other beasts, their dominion was removed, and they were given an extension of life until a set time.
But as for the other beasts, their dominion was removed And from the other kingdoms, their dominion was removed by Heaven.
and they were given an extension of life And He gave them time to live until a set day in the future, the wars of Gog and Magog.
an extension Aram. אַרְכָה, waiting.
13. I saw in the visions of the night, and behold with the clouds of the heaven, one like a man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was brought before Him.
one like a man was coming That is the King Messiah.
and… up to the Ancient of Days Who was sitting in judgment and judging the nations.
came arrived, reached.
14. And He gave him dominion and glory and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and tongues shall serve him; his dominion is an eternal dominion, which will not be removed, and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.
And He gave him dominion And to that man He gave dominion over the nations, for the heathens he likens to beasts, and Israel he likens to a man because they are humble and innocent.
which will not be removed [as translated,] will not be removed.
15. My spirit-I, Daniel-became troubled within its sheath, and the visions of my mind terrified me.
My spirit… became troubled Aram. אֶתְכְּרִיַת an expression of (Exod. 21:33): “or if… digs (יִכְרֶה),” and Hebrew and Aramaic are alike in this case; i.e., it was humbled because of the depth of its digging.
within its sheath Aram. בְּגו ֹנִדְנֶה; i.e., my spirit became terrified in my body from this dream.
16. I drew near to one of those standing [there], and I asked him the truth of all this, and he told it to me, and he let me know the interpretation of the matters.
I drew near to one of those standing I drew near to one of those standing there beside the Ancient of Days. The angels are called standing ones, as it is said: (Zech. 3:7): “among these who stand by (הָעמְדִים),” because they have no joints.
and I asked him the truth [as translated,] and I asked him the truth.
17. [He said] "These huge beasts, which are four, are four kingdoms, which will arise from the earth.
four kingdoms Aram. אַרְבְּעָא מַלְכִין, lit. four kings.
18. And the high holy ones will receive the kingdom, and they will inherit the kingdom forever and to all eternity."
And the high holy ones will receive the kingdom These are Israel, who will take the kingdom from the fourth one.
19. Then I wished to determine the truth of the fourth beast, which was different from all of them- excessively dreadful; its teeth were of iron and its nails of copper; it ate and crushed to powder, and the rest it trampled with its feet.
Then I wished to determine the truth Then I wished to determine the truth concerning the fourth beast.
which was different from all of them-excessively dreadful which was different from all of them with excessive dreadfulness.
20. And concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other one that came up and [the] three [that] fell before it, and the horn that was like this and that had eyes and a mouth speaking arrogantly, and its appearance was greater than [that of] its companions.
and [the] three [that] fell before it and three of the first ones fell before it.
and the horn that was like this and that had eyes and the horn that was like this, and had eyes, as is written above.
21. I looked and the horn that was like this waged war with the holy ones and overwhelmed them.
I looked in my first dream, which I told above.
with the holy ones with Israel.
22. Until the Ancient of Days came and gave revenge to the high holy ones, and the time arrived that the holy ones inherited the kingdom.
and gave revenge to the high holy ones and He gave them revenge from it.
23. So he said, "The fourth beast [represents] a fourth kingdom [that] will be on the earth, which will be different from all the kingdoms, and it will devour the whole land and trample it and crush it.
So he said So did the angel who interpreted the dream for me reply to me.
24. And the ten horns that [sprout] from that kingdom [represent] ten kings [that] will rise, and the last one will rise after them, and he will be different from the first, and he will humble three kings.
And the ten horns And its ten horns that you saw-this is its interpretation.
from that kingdom [as translated,] from that kingdom.
and the last one will rise after them and the last one will rise after them-that is Titus.
25. And he will speak words against the Most High, and he will oppress the high holy ones, and he will think to change the times and the law, and they will be delivered into his hand until a time, two times, and half a time.
against the Most High [as translated,] against the Most High.
and he will oppress the high holy ones He will burden and oppress Israel.
and he will think to change the times and the law He will plan in his heart to cause them to transgress all their appointed times and their laws.
until a time, two times, and half a time This is an obscure end, as was said to Daniel (12:4): “And you, Daniel, close up the words and seal,” and the early commentators expounded on it, each one according to his view, and the ends have passed. We can still interpret it as I saw written in the name of Rav Saadia Gaon, that they are the 1,335 years stated at the end of the Book (12:12): “Fortunate is he who waits [and reaches the days one thousand three hundred and thirty-five],” and he explains the appointed time as until the time of two times and a half time, and he [Rav Saadia Gaon] said that the times are 480 [years], which is the time from the Exodus from Egypt until the Temple was built, and 410 [years], [which are] the days of the First Temple, totaling 890, and another half of this time, 445, totaling 1,335. Figure these from the time the daily sacrifice was discontinued until the daily sacrifice will be restored to its place; it was discontinued six years prior to the destruction, and there is somewhat of a proof in this Book. [See Rashi to 8:14.] Others bring further proof to this computation, namely that (Deut. 31: 18): “And I, will hide My face” [the words] הַסְתֵּר אַסְתִּיר add up in gematria to 1,335.
26. And the judgment shall be established, and they will remove his dominion to be destroyed and annihilated until the end.
And the judgment was established And the judgment was established before Him.
and they will remove his dominion from heaven. They will remove the dominion and the rule of that kingdom.
27. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under all the heavens will be given to the people of the high holy ones; its kingdom is a perpetual kingdom, and all dominions will serve and obey [it]."
and obey They will obey his command to execute it.
28. Until here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts terrified me greatly, and my colors changed upon me, and I kept the matter in my heart.
until here [as translated,] until here.
my thoughts terrified me greatly My thoughts were terrifying me greatly.
and my colors changed The appearance of my good looks and my features changed.
I kept… in my heart I hid in my heart.

The text on this page contains sacred literature. Please do not deface or discard.
note the verse 14 above (gematria Chabad) and verse 28 gematria Yechi...

Yechi Yehovah Tzidkeinu (Long Live the Rebbe G-d Almighty refered to as Jehovah our righteous one in Yeremia 23 as explained in Talmud Bava Basra 75B and in the article "Rebbe-Moshiach-G-d?" linked from "The Rebbe-G-d-Almighty loves you!" bellow ) Forever and ever!

By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
Yeshar Koach to Rabbi Wolpe Shlit"a may the prophecy Benyamin zev (wolf-wolpe?) be fulfilled thru him may he tear appart the attachment Yiddn have to this disgusting heresy and avodah zorah-idolworship belief that the state whose founders even refused to include G-d's name in the declaration of statehood is anything more than a klipah whose tikun is bitul (nullification) to the Rebbe-Almighty and His servants like Rabbi Wolpo who as the Ynet article points out is the most popular Chabad Rabbi in Eretz Yisroel-Land of Yisrael now and may the tear out the love for this state as it is right now and fear of it's servants and any respect for it from peoples hearts and may it and the whole world be transformed into a the state of Moshiach and redemption where people will no longer be ruled by corrupt leaders "from whom we have the most to fear - for they daily place our lives in danger just to be men of the year..." as the song says...
And may this blog keep it's name but describe the dismantling of the religious Zionist ideology and other false Messiahs!
Yechi Yehovoh Tsidkeinu!
Long Live the Rebbe G-d Almighty Forever and ever!

By the grace of G-d
I'm sorry the last post has a typo actualy words missing I meant to say "Benyamin zev itrof" - Yakov's blessing to Bajamin "Benyamin shall tear like a wolf" (please correct me if I'm wrong )
Yechi Yehovah Tsidkeinu!

ma rabbi ,
wolpe is no rabbi and no scholar -chabadniks cannot be scholars of any discipline.
a scholar chabadnik is an oxymoron .
about you , i know little .
as to sharon , may i remind you that , venassi be-amekha lo ta-or applied even to Herod .
when it suited chabad , the rebbe met sharon betuppim ubimcholot .

when the rebbe would have said marchik hageula , actually he was accusing wolpe of being unable to keep a secret properly ; not of holding different opinions !

wolpe is right ?
I do not think so .
The klipot and sitro achoro are exclusively in a crescent that start in Queens , intensifies and ends in CH , r"l.

if u cross wolpa in a notarikon + reverse gematria formula , you get :
SHR'Y = shem reshoyeem yirkov !

ma rabbi--the secular and socialist founders of Israeli Zionism did not believe that the state was a sign or instrument of God's redemption--by definition of "secular" and "socialist"--
However what we see, I think, in Wolpe's publications (particularly see y-net) is not only an abandonment of what seems to have been the Rebbe's de facto embrace of Mizrachi-Gush belief that, despite themselves, the founders of Israel had begun the process of redemption (and, for the Rebbe, Messiah's revelation). More than that backtracking, in disappointment over the secular hegemony and Israeli embrace of disengagement, sectors of the religous public, including Chabad's messianic and Elohist wings, seem to be falling back into traditional Agudas-Chabad *anti-Zionism* with increasing investment in arguments based on general old-new models of prophetic claims. Thus we have the messianic-Elohist claim (Wolpe) that God decided not to actually defeat Sharon (too simple) but allowed disengagement to go forward to prove His withdrawal from modern Israel (the camp of Messiah now, I guess, has decided that Messiah's role in ingathering of exiles to Israel doesn't/didn't really have anything to do with the state as such, or something like that, or whatever). And we have the Elohist-Messianic posts here whose theological method rests on exegesis of Daniel.

I await with anticipation the Chabad annotated publication of Revelations.

"No. The Rebbe said saying the founding of the "state" of Israel is the beggining of the Redemption, THAT is "marchik the geulah".

I beg to differ. When Wolpe published his first book proclaiming the Rebbe was Moshiach, the Rebbe told him he was being "Marchik the Geulah".

Guess the Rebbe would be pained by the nutcase from Boston calling him Yud Kay Vov Kay.

Incidentally Ariel, I know you don't know this but the Anshe Mesorah deliberately put the wrong punctuation in so idiots like you would not know the Shem Hashem.

Guess they were right.

So who do you daven to?

Sometimes Shmarya's posts are so off the wall.

Then one of these elokist idiots shows up and makes his site worthwhile.

Ariel, everytime you make kiddush. You turn the wine to yayin nesech.

I wouldn't count you in a minyan.

I suspect you need a therapist more than a Rov.

Hashem Yirachem.

Reply to Yekhoniahu:
Rabbi wolpe is a world class scholar. I suggest you read or rather study his seforim and you will see that he is fluent in Shas and poskim.
About me you know nothing. I received my Semicha from Rav Moshe in 1974 and I am the smallest of the Rebbes chassidim.
About Sharon, he is not a Nossi,but a duped and gullible Rosha whose policies have endangered many Yidden.

"About Sharon, he is not a Nossi,but a duped and gullible Rosha whose policies have endangered many Yidden."

Since you have smicha from Rav Moshe let me share a story not commonly known.

When a Jewish diamond dealer was killed, the family went to the Rebbe z"l and asked if they could include HY"D on the matzevah.

The Rebbe said this was a matter of psak halacha and sent them to Rav Moshe.

Rav Moshe said that since it is possible the killer was a Jew (this was not known publicly at the time but turned out to be true) it was not permitted to ask Hashem to do evil to another Jew.

I don't believe Rav Moshe would have called any Jew a Rosha.

Shame on you.

To Reb Tzvi:
Good story and I am glad to see that Rav Moshe had ruach hakodesh. As to calling another Jew a rosha. The source for this is in the Torah when Moshe Rabbenu said " rosha loma takeh er rayecha." Sharons blows against the innocent Jews of Gush Katif were worse that the fists of Dasan and Avirum.Have some feeling for these poor innocent people and dont worry about Sharons kavod.

Rambam, of course, was just showing a sense of humor when he wrote..." there is no difference between our days and the days of the Mashiach other than political independence from goyim (the nations)."

I've had other Chabad folks make the claim that we don't "know" how to properly vocalize the tetragrammaton version of God's name. Here is an interesting link that explores the issue in good (secular) detail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton.

So now you're equal to Moshe Rabeinu in nevuah?

Ma rabbi--whether Sharon is or is not a rosha, the argument of Wolpe is not with one man but with the state per se, including the majority of citizens who, no less than Sharon, back relocation of Gush Katif residents. The question, if the state is not vested in holiness, is indeed unholy, indeed will not lead naturally to but needs to be replaced in its entirety by the Kingdom of Messiah, is whether post-Gimmel Tammuz and post-disengagement, Chabad's orientation to the state of Israel has changed--whether in its theological understanding of the state or, in practical terms, Chabad representatives feel any less bound by the laws of the state than they feel obliged to follow the laws of, say, the Borough of Brooklyn. I will add that the 67 war was not, for example, "won" by this or that religious figure acting as G-d's especial emissary on earth, but by the collective efforts and hard work of its society, its state, its citizens, and its soldiers, who ought not to be so easily dismissed.

for example: on the one hand we are told a popular song is ""we do not believe in the rule of the heretics, and disregard their laws"--on the other, Chabad joins in a partnership with Shas towards the elections indicating a willingness to formally participate within the government of a still-unredeemed state.

to Paul;
I feel the sincerity of your comments.Rabbi Wolpe is not advocating rebelion against the state. He is stating that the formation of the state is not the beginning of the redemption.All religiuos Jews,including myself, recognize that the six day war was a miracle of Hashem combined with the genius of the IDF.Unlike todays situation when the politicans especially Mr. Sharon tie the hands of the military and prevent them from doing what is neccessary to protect Jewish lives.

Not really true. Rabbi Wolpe told soldiers not to serve and not to carry out evacuation orders. These are treasonous acts in most countries, and should be viewed as such.

ma rabbi--we disagree, fair to say, on many things and these are not simple disputes, but ... --I do feel that R. Wolpe is, at the least, expressing a degree of emotional separation from the very potential of the modern state of Israel, a despair, that I don't know is warranted by the failure of that state in this generation to commit to shlimut Eretz Yisroel. I don't say this to suggest drawing up "timelines of redemption"--but to even say that 67 was a nes is to suggest that the "revolutionary optimism" of the late 60's need not be replaced by a theoretical break, discontinuity, tear, between the kingdom of gemishut/exile in the land and a future (and perfect) Kingdom of David.

btw, from Hillel G.'s website http://www.torahlight.com/index.htm there is a link to http://www.halachaonline.com/audio/Hallel-Assmauth1.mp3, a discourse from his Rav that touches on this topic.

Rebtsvi, while you are right that the Rebbe said about Wolpo's original book is marchik the geulah, the Rebbe also said that saying that the current time we live in is "Isachalta Di'geulah", darkens the golus.

About Ariel:

About a year ago exactly, I had the misfortune of meeting (well, if you can call shouting at him in 770 and throwing his yellow flag pin into the street meeting), he is insane. Though he was'nt writing Y K V K then....

For the record: I believe that it is improper to use the term elokist for him, I prefer apikores. Mishechistim often say: "Everyone's a mishechist, everyone believes in Moshiach". A remix of that would be: "Everyone's an elokist, everyone believes in G-d".

R' Dovid
what does darken the golus mean ?
Did the Rebbe mean it as a good thing whereas the golus get darker & eretz yisroel shines as a consequence ? or it means it dims the prospects of redemption ?

R' Yosef, I don't think that either is correct. It simply makes the current time we stay in golus more dark i.e. difficult.

who cares what the rebbe ment

whats about leibowitz ?


It seems Rabbi Boteach is compromising to reach the masses. My readings seem to conform more to those of Rabbi Skobac.

According to Rabbi Skobac, the early Jewish followers of Jesus appear to have followed a strict version of Jewish Pharisaic law. Early Christian documents show that members of the Jesus sect, his family and followers, did NOT believe in the divinity of Jesus.

It was Paul, a mystic who never met Jesus, who compromised the teachings of Jesus by teaching that it was not necessary to follow the dietary and purity laws. James, the brother of Jesus called Paul to Jerusalem, where Paul was interrogated for compromising the dietary and purity laws when teaching. James and early leaders then forced Paul to go through a Cleansing Ritual, because of his heresy.


There were various sects of Christianity most of whom perished in the Roman persecutions. Constantine converted to the "Paul sect" the effect of which was to relegate those who followed the teachings of Jesus and his family to the back-rooms of history. A history which is only now being uncovered.

Like other forms of exilic Judaism, the very idea that we progress toward, work, and sacrifice for our sovereignty is antithetical to the core of this entrenched philosophy. The opposition to a reality based holistic vision that can ensure our spiritual and physical growth and survival is strangled within the narrow straights of this cult-like world view. Perpetuating some form of wish-thinking based upon strenuously cobbled together 'sources' is much too alluring for such a mindset and will hopefully be washed away with the tides of history.

here we are mr. failed messiah proving his worth by showing the anti-zionism of chabad. and what if it's true? doesn't matter.israel uber allas.

Knowing Chabad since childhood (not being a Chabady myself though), I can personally vouch I have never seen more staunch support of Israel. Chabad.org is constantly documenting it's support for the troops. When talking to a knowledgeable Rabbi (if you really press them, or catch them off guard), they have to concede the Rebbe supported the people and the land of Israel, not Zionism. Strangely though, they push the birthright program which serves to integrate Jews who are culturally Jewish (not necessarily Halackikly)and cause the tides of assimilation. Very confusing when you factor in certain incidents documented on this website showing staunch anti Zionism...

At the end of the day, shouldn't we abandon an ideology which was founded by the true self hating Jews. (See the movie Herzl and Zionism http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mep6yWD7gew )Those who participated in the transfer agreement (a deal with the Nazi's) and went against world Jewry who had called for a Nazi boycott of goods (research your history, don't shoot the messenger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transfer_Agreement). Though we should understand many lives were saved this way, the need for a Zionist state was due to antisemitism, not out of any religious motivation whatsoever. We should all do our best to gradually work towards improving our religious observance, refining our characters and igniting the sparks of Chassidus in others so we usher in the Moshiach (whoever he may be).

We could still be called Israel. We need an end to all the nationalism and to find a just and non corrupted rabbinical council who get along to some degree... :)

DISCLAIMER - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I am not affiliated with Chabad in any official sense.

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