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August 14, 2005

New Haredi Website – & Book – About Chabad

A new website, IndentifyingChabad.org has been launched by the Center For Torah Demographics. The anonymous author(s) of the website have also published a book by the same name. (I haven't read the book, so I can't comment on it yet.)

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This site is typical Charedism. Look at us, we are so holy, we don't eat this, and don't drink that, and don't amrry this one, and don't talk to that one.

You may think this is a good way to get at Chabad, by technically identifying everyone in Chabad who doesn't care about Messianism with the Messianists, unless they specifically recant, but I assure you that it will backfire. Like the Slifkin ban, and everything else they do, they simply don;t understand how a cigar is just a cigar sometimes.

How do I know? I personally know of situations where, just by walking into a community and attending a particular shul, you have declared loyalty to whole group of political and religious beliefs. Most people do not care for this exclusivity and are happy to live and let live.

yeah , live and let live - is fine as long as they let you- live .
they are not nice people . they are out to get every jew at any price , any trick from within or without the book , clean and more often dirty .
this new web site , calls for shehekhionu .
all the best of success it's long overdue .
it's patterned after jews for judaism & it's existence is as justified . better yet , necessary .
y'sher koyech !

A glorified cowardly pashkville, like the rest. Too chicken to sign their names!

Because most people do not need the us / them theology of Charedism, their numbers will continue to dwindle.

http://rebeljew.blogspot.com/2005/06/why-rebel.html

Not anonymous anymore

His name is [Edited by siteowner.]

I just started looking at the preview download and it looks pretty good. It, along with the recently released Hebrew edition of Rabbi Dr. David Berger's book (The Rebbe, the Messiah...), will hopefully bring some more long-overdue scrutiny to bear on a group that was once considered a quaint fringe sect, but which is now seeking (and at times succeeding, especially in various Jewish backwaters where the locals are ignorant, naive and neglected) to be a dominant player and infiltrate and control mainstream Judaism.

"This site is typical Charedism. Look at us, we are so holy, we don't eat this, and don't drink that, and don't amrry this one, and don't talk to that one."

rebeljew ,
in this instance , u are wrong . it's not that simple an analogy .
the way u express yourself , is the way chabad speaks of what they derogatorily call litvish or yeshivish - as if it were a sin to be either .
the problem with them , is different , it's not only a question of chumros , like looking down on clean shaven rabbis , but of outright heresy . being out of the pale of normative judaism .
In either case , assuming you are right in describing "all chreidis" as snobs , Chabad is no different , worse actually .
They begin themselves by being Chareidi .
Those who started the new website , are forwarning the public .

One favorite quote from the book's preview text:

"R’ Hirsch notes that a mummar is someone who, for
one reason or another, “subscribes in practice to ideas contrary
to Judaism” – he simply desecrates Shabbos. A min, however,
“subscribes to such views (also) in thought and attitude”
(emphasis added) – he feels it’s the correct thing to do. This is
what is meant by “aduk” (see, for instance, Chulin 13b, Rashi
“min”), that he is attached to his theology; his whole
personality is defined by it in principle.
Further, it makes no difference whether the min
observes other mitzvos and/or considers himself a loyal Jew
(even if he is a child of minim), his principled defection in a
crucial area of the Torah, testifies to his self-exclusion from
the Torah nation. We are, therefore, required to distance
ourselves from him, regardless of his general level of
observance or warmth to Judaism (see Avodah Zarah 17a on
Mishlei 5; 8). "

Translation: we don't like the JTS rabbis and other liberal scholars, especially women, that know as much Gemara and Mishna as we do because sometimes they can out-argue us with the facts and prove that we're insane purist fanatics that haShem should send back to the cave like R. Si'mon bar Yochai and son. Educated liberal Jews are Bad. Therefore, we shall call them names and not eat qiddush at their shuls. We win!

And these are the folks that are going to take down Chabad?


“All We Need to Do Is Open Our Eyes”
I. What is Reality?
The Alter Rebbe describes the nature of existence as follows: Every being has the Ten Divine Utterances within it, which continuously create it and provide it with life. The creative letters are constantly found within the created being, re-creating it moment after moment. Thus the created being is in a state of absorption within the letters, similar to the state of
sunlight within the orb of the sun. Why then is the material world recognized as an entity?
The Alter Rebbe explains that the created being perceives itself as a separate entity because of a Tzimtzum, by which G-d conceals and contracts his life force. We do not comprehend nor see the power of G-d with our physical eyes, If however, the eye were permitted to see true reality, we would be able to sense that G-d is the only true existence.
The Rebbe MH”M Shlita asks: According to this, created beings are in reality found within their source. They perceive themselves as existing separately from it merely because of the concealment of the Tzimtzum, but they are actually G-dliness. This gives rise to a cataclysmic question regarding the entire essence of
Torah and Mitzvos. The purpose of Torah and Mitzvos is to draw down G-dliness into the physical substances with which the Mitzvos are performed. The Mitzvah of Tefillin, for example, is intended to draw down
G-dliness into the physical parchment and ink etc. But if the parchment is G-dly even before the performance of the Mitzvah and it is only the corporeal eyes of
man that fail to perceive it to be so, how then could there be a Mitzvah to transform parchment into
G-dliness, when in reality it was G-dly even before
it was used for a Mitzvah?
The Rebbe explains that the answer can be found in the words of the Alter Rebbe and his description of the Tzimtzum. The concealment of the life-force is termed Keilim (vessels), while the life-force itself is called Or (Light). The following analogy can then be drawn: when the sun’s rays pass through colored glass, the light itself remains simple, unaffected by its
passage. However, there is an evident change with regard to its perception; for after passing through red glass the light is perceived as red light,through green glass – as green light, and so forth. By using the word “Keilim” the Alter Rebbe is teaching us that the Tzimtzum is a true entity in relation to the viewer, meaning from our perspective the concealment is real (just as the colored vessel truly alters the color of light.) However, the light as it relates to itself does not undergo change. Similarly in relation to the life-force, the Tzimtzum is not a concealment at all.The purpose of Torah and Mitzvos, is to remove the concealment so that the G-dly life-force becomes our reality as well.
II. Tzadikim and Reality
Tzadikim are compared to their creator . We find that Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai said, “Ana Simna B’alma,” [I am just a sign {of G-dliness above}]This means, that Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai did not feel as though he was a separate entity, but was totally nullified and included in the realm of G-dliness. This applies, not only to Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, but to all Tzadikim that were of his stature, and certainly the Nossi Hador [the leader of each generation].
Being that Tzadikim are in the realm of G-dliness, they act as a “reflection” of the happenings in the supernal worlds. For example, the Alter Rebbe would fall asleep automatically before the onset of Shabbos, as that is described in Kabbala as the time of “sleep” above.
III. Do Tzadikim Pass Away?
Concerning the passing of our Patriarch Yaakov, the Talmud says: “Yaakov our father did not die.” Rashi explains that although he was mourned, embalmed and buried, that is because as the Egyptians perceived reality, it appeared to them that he had died. The Rebbe MH”M Shlita explains that from the perspective of the Egyptians, this concept was true (according to the Torah). However, Yaakov’s true being as it is conceived by the Torah and not bound by the limitations of nature is: “he is alive.” In that sense, we can say that the passing of Yaakov, the leader of his generation, reflected the G-dly life-force, as it is concealed in relation to created beings before the observance of Torah and Mitzvos.
Through the performance of Torah and Mitzvos for thousands of years, the Jewish people have been drawing G-dliness into the physical world and removing its concealment. The previous Rebbe said that we have finished all the work (that we need to accomplish through Torah and Mitzvos) and all that remains is to “polish the buttons”. When the previous Rebbe, the Nossi(leader) of his generation passed on, the Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach Shlita said that, “his passing is only from our material point of view and we are left with a question why we recite Kaddish.” This may mean that since at that point (1950) the concealment had essentially been removed and all that remained was “polishing the buttons”, the Rebbe was addressing the fact that the Previous Rebbe’s passing was barely a reality, even from our perspective (and thus the question of why we should recite Kaddish etc.)
The Rebbe MH”M Shlita refers to the passing of the previous Rebbe as a Nissayon (test). Chassidus explains that during a Nissayon we are not dealing with a real entity, and the way one overcomes the test is by standing strong until he comes to the realization that the Nissayon was an illusion. The work is within one’s self to stand strong and withstand the Nissayon until one realizes that the Nissayon was just an illusion. As the Rebbe MH”M says concerning the passing of the Previous Rebbe, “the intent of the Nissayon is to draw out the powers and strength necessary to overcome it, this in turn removes the concealment and reveals the truth.”
In recent years, the Rebbe has stated that we have already polished the buttons, and the Avodas Habirurim (the work of actively purifying the concealment) has been completed, and the only work that remains now is to welcome Moshiach.
IV. Reality Today
This may mean that today, the concealment of the G-dly life-force is only from our fleshly eyes, meaning that the concealment and the exile are no longer the reality even from an earthly perspective. The service of Torah and Mitzvos has already drawn G-dliness into every aspect of the physical world so that the redemption is the reality from every perspective.
(Therefore, our service of Torah and Mitzvos today is on a higher level that deals with welcoming Moshiach.)
With this approach we can appreciate the Rebbe’s statement that: “all we have to do is open up our eyes”, for in truth the concealment is only from our fleshly eyes, and we now have the capability to see that the world is G-dly. This is also reflected in the fact, that the Nossi – the Rebbe MH”M Shlita is here with us physically and yet because of our fleshly eyes, we don’t see him.
The Rebbe says in a Maamer that the purpose of the concealment of G-dliness is in order that we should search and find G-d in all matters of the world. It is similar to a father who hides from his young child in order to demonstrate the wisdom of his son; expecting the child to understand that the concealment is only to motivate him to seek his father and find him. By our Emunah in the physical existence of the Rebbe MH”M and our longing to physically see him and certainly by fulfilling all the directives of the Rebbe MH”M, we will be able to open up our eyes and see the Rebbe
Melech HaMoshiach and see the reality of the true and complete redemption.


Yos'l

You misunderstand me. I agree whole heartedly. Chabad leads the world in exporting Charedishe hubris, in forms that even the other Charedim would be embarrassed to see (eg Messianism). I think that the world of "we love all Jews and do not speak lashon hara. We are not arrogant. Unlike those misnagdim who only learn for self aggrandizement and talk bad about Chabad and they can all go choke on their own ..." gets old and difficult to defend after a while. Add that to "we don't eat anything even in a normal kosher store" and "we don't look at books with nonkosher animals" and Daseihem shonos mikol Am and Messianism, and you have almost a caricature of Charedism. It certainly is not attractive to BTs unless they are looking for an us / them situation so they can belong somewhere. To me, that is not Judaism. It is just sad.

Here are my observations on Chabad, coming from a BT who used to hang out at his college Chabad House. 1.They want people to become more religious and they always go on about Ahava Yisrael,yet they openly ridicule and insult any member of a group that is already religious. 2.They use the word snag like a racist would use the word nigger. 3.They get people to learn Tanya instead of basic Torah and Jewish concepts. 4.They always seem to favor the Rebbe isntead of G-d, 5.They let a man who has been dead for over 10 years guide their lives. 6.They have a our shit doesnt stink attitude. 7.They are pompous as hell. 8.They seem to specialize in attracting people who are nuts.

thanks rebeljew ,
sorry for misunderstanding !

j

i enjoyed your insights .
i did not however understand your ref to snag.
can u please elucidate ?
thanks

Yos'l,

"Snag" is a slang term for a "Misnaged," refering to non-Chasidim, who historically have been opposed ("misnaged" means "opposed") to Chasidic teachings and Chasidic culture.

Today Misnagdim prefer the term "Lita'im" (meaning "Lithuanian," after the epicenter of rejection of Chasidism), as they find the term less derogatory.

Snag is a term of moderate derision, but it is not an "insult" per se. It is not pronounced in admiration, but in the type of derogation common in rivalry. "Nigger" is a term that specifically recalls slavery, since that contraction was common in that time, and it is almost always meant as a derisive inflammatory insult when pronounced by a non-"black" to a "black" person, regardless of the etymology or even the current uses in otehr contexts. They are not at all similar.

The word "snag" as a reference to "misnagdim" is used not only in chabad circles, but in many other chassidic communities as well. That does not in any way make the word kosher and permissable to speak derogetorively about other Jews. In fact, wihin Chabad you will NOT find a strictly chassidshe Lubavitcher using such terminology. That means that in the majority of Chabad, the word doesn't even exist. It is sad that when people hear a word used by sveral careless chabdniks (NOT THE MAJORITY) hey try using it as proof for their case against chabad. Try harder. Or rather invest your time resources and energy on further devloping your relationship with G-d and His people. Do another Mitzva and bring the revelation of Mosach a moment sooner.

"Here are my observations on Chabad, coming from a BT who used to hang out at his college Chabad House. 1.They want people to become more religious and they always go on about Ahava Yisrael,yet they openly ridicule and insult any member of a group that is already religious."

I've been around dozens of Chabad rabbis, and none have openly acted in that manner. They are more inclined to (often correctly) perceive insult from mainstream Jewish groups.

"2.They use the word snag like a racist would use the word nigger."

Again, I never heard that term, but rather: "Misnagdim" or "Yeshivish" or "Litvak".

"3.They get people to learn Tanya instead of basic Torah and Jewish concepts."

Not even close in my experience. Some of the best Torah study I've experienced was with a small group taught by a quite learned Chabad rabbi. We studied classical commentary with just a few mystical tidbits here and there.

"4.They always seem to favor the Rebbe isntead of G-d, 5.They let a man who has been dead for over 10 years guide their lives."

Hmmm, that may be closer to the mark than the other points, but still, only a small number of the local Chabad rabbis have even been seen/heard davening to the "Rebbe", zl"t.

"6.They have a our shit doesnt stink attitude. 7.They are pompous as hell."

I think it takes a certain amount of self-bolstering to take on shluchas (sp?) - it's no easy task to setup shop and get fundraising income rolling in to support your Chabad house operations. It's a tough gig, no wonder almost no other group has similar outreach programs - they can't find anyone crazy enough to take on a vow of poverty to do kiruv!

"8.They seem to specialize in attracting people who are nuts."

True, as anyone who has been to a Chabad house knows. Oh well, as if they're aren't nuts in my shul?

Snag is commonly used in Minnesota. It is derogatory, perhaps not as strong as nigger but still stronger than RebelJew posits. It is not used by senior shluchim but is common among younger shluchim and regular Chabadniks. You won't hear the term in a class that has outsiders in it or in other public events, but you will hear it in general conversation and in farbrengens where only Chabadniks are present. Snag as a term is limited to Chabad, unless things have changed in the last few years. Snag – or misnaged – is rarely if ever used in other Chasidic groups like Belz, Satmar, Kloisenberg, etc. It's just not done.

Here are my observations on Chabad, coming from a BT who used to hang out at his college Chabad House.

8.They seem to specialize in attracting people who are nuts.

Ah - so this is why you hung out there!

From under which rocks do these loonies crawl out?

"In fact, wihin Chabad you will NOT find a strictly chassidshe Lubavitcher using such terminology. That means that in the majority of Chabad, the word doesn't even exist."

:D (****snort****)

Mendy, you need to get out more. Try joining us in the real world once a week. It even has better food than whatever fantasy land you live in.

Scott,

You are not part of the Jewish community in Minnesota, how can you say what senior or younger shluchim say if you are not around them?

I did not mean to say snag was the same as nigger just that it can be used like an insult more like schfartza. And these were my observations I dont expect everybody to share them of course. Snag is a pretty popular term so just because you havent heard it does not mean that its not used. To the poster above the reason I hung out at the Chabad house was because I was friends with the rabbi and the free food didnt hurt either. When I was talking about nuts I was refering to the ones who identify as 100 percent lubavitch not the average person at a Chabad house. Again Im not saying Im a expert by any stretch of the imagination but I have been around Chabad from California to Baltimore, Chicago, Ohio, Florida, Israel and I have lived in Crown Heights for a couple years so Im far from a jonny come lately either. To Enough LH sorry bro I havent been under rocks, and Ive been walking for quite awhile. And Im pretty far from loony pherhaps you have me mistaken for someone else. Thanks for all the comments on my comment though. Always appreciated.

Uhhh, Leo, I was a part of that community for 22 years.

j
you have given some of the most discerning insights into those people , anywhere .
many may write about the dangers of idolatry or "how about the good that they do ? ".
you go past the plate of cholent into reading really what they are .

Yos'l thanks for the complement, and I'll have to remember that plate of cholent line.

So Shmarya,

a) Have you read this book yet? Have you any comments on it?

b) Why haven't you listed this site under "Chabad Links"?

c) The central focus of the book is the "problem" with hiskashrut, and specifically what they call "betten the Rebbe." What do you think it is permissible to ask the Rebbe now that he is not alive? Do you think there is any problem with asking an angel for a blessing? Do you ever ask angels for blessings?

d) For good or for bad, your site is definitely top notch quality and (based on the wide variety of those regularly leaving comments) is tremendiously popular. Do you have any plans of publishing a book?

a) Just a few pages. No comment so far.
b) Forgot.
c) There are a couple of prayers that appear to address angels. Some major poskim have refused to say these. In any case, these prayers are of relatively late origin and are based on kabbala.
d) Thought about it but haven't written it yet.

Okay, thanks.

But how about...

c) "Bless me for peace angels of peace..." Know any major - or minor - poskim who refuse to say this? Do you say it?

Yes, I have heard of a few who won't say it. And there are peirushim that explain this differently and don't take the angel reference at face value. But it's important to recognize that the entire verse means that God is above the angels and everything else and it is in that merit that one 'asks' for a blessing of peace.

It is also important to remember that God created angles of peace to bestow that peace on His creation. That verse is asking those angels to do their jobs. It is not praying to those angels.

Well, people ask living tzadikim for brachot all the time. It seems that the tzadikim have formed some kind of racket for controlling the bestowal of brachot that G-d rations out to the corporeal world. You have to pay your respect to one of the "bosses" in order to get your cut. It is just as common to ask for these brachot from dead tzadikim (even mentioned in Shulchan Aruch as a custom to do so before Rosh ha-Shanah). It would seem equally apropos to say that the tzadikim are doing their jobs just like the angels of peace.

Wouldn't you concur?

Where does the Shulkan Arukh tell one to "ask for these brachot from dead tzadikim"? I've seen just the opposite. Further, the Ben Ish Chai brings down very clearly that it is wrong. Certainly the GRA was opposed to such things. Where in the SA do you see support for this?

Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 128:13

Back to my original question: Do you concur?

I think you must be misreading the Kitzur, but I'll have to dig mine out and look it up to be sure.

I do NOT concur that asking dead people – tzaddikim or not – for brachot is a good thing. It is not, and its roots are not Jewish.

And, sure enough, the Kitzur (128:13) says:

"… We, however, should not direct our prayers [נגד המתים השוכנים שם] to the dead who are buried there, [כי קרוב הדבר] since (doing) so is close [שיהיה בכלל ודורש אל המתים] to the law (forbidding) ''inquiring of the dead''. [אך יבקש מהשם יתברך] Instead, one should ask (G-d), blessed be His Name, [שירחם עליו בזכות הצדיקים שוכני עפר] to have mercy on him in the merit of the tzaddikim who lie in the dust.…"

Oh, now you're spinning like Shochet. Yes, we do not pray to the dead, just as we do not pray to the angels. But be a man and quote from the beginning where it says that we exhort the tzadikim to intercede. I.e. we recognize that they have some leverage in the matter and ask them to do what they can to "make things work out" and to "disappear" our problems. It's a racket, admit it, and the tzadikim, alive or dead, are doing their job just like the angels of peace.

Do you deny that this is what it says in the beginning of the halachah?

No, it's not spin:

"It is customary to go on the day preceding Rosh HaShana, [אחר תפלת שחרית] after the morning service, [לבית הקברות להשתטח על קברי הצדיקים] to the cemetery and pray at the graves of righteous people. [ונותנים שם צדקה לעניים] We give there charity to the poor [ומרבים תחנונים] and say many supplications [לעורר את הצדיקים הקדושים אשר בארץ המה] to arouse the holy tzaddikim who are buried there [שימליצו טוב בעדנו ביום הדין] to intercede on our behalf on the day of judgment. [וגם מחמת שהוא מקום קבורת הצדיקים] Also, since this is the burial place of tzaddikim, [המקום הוא קדוש וטהור] the place is holy and pure, [והתפלה מקובלת שם ביותר] and prayers (said there) are received more favorably [בהיותה על אדמת קודש] because (they were said) on holy ground. [ויעשה הקדוש ברוך בוא חסד בזכות הצדיקים] The Holy One, blessed be He, will deal graciously (with us) in the merit of the tzaddikim. [אבל אל ישים מגמתו] We, however, should not direct our prayers [נגד המתים השוכנים שם] to the dead who are buried there, [כי קרוב הדבר] since (doing) so is close [שיהיה בכלל ודורש אל המתים] to the law (forbidding) ''inquiring of the dead''. [אך יבקש מהשם יתברך] Instead, one should ask (G-d), blessed be His Name, [שירחם עליו בזכות הצדיקים שוכני עפר] to have mercy on him in the merit of the tzaddikim who lie in the dust. e dust.…"

In other words, by praying to GOD at the graves of a tzaddikim (this is meant in its normal usage and NOT in Chabad or Hasidic usage, and would therefore include ANY dead person unless he had a clear reputatation as an evildoer), those tzaddikim buried their will become "aroused," will notice the plight of those still alive in this world, and will then direct their prayers to beseech God to help his children who are still alive in this world.

That is the plain meaning of what Rabbi Ganzfreid wrote, and it is the normative halakha as always understood. It is based on the idea that people who have passed on are not aware of events in this world. But by praying to GOD in the place where their bodies lie, the place where their last vestige of physicality remains, the dead may become aware of those prayers and then may join them with their own.

This is normative halakha.

"...ומרבים תחנונים and say many supplications לעורר את הצדיקים הקדושים אשר בארץ המה to arouse the holy tzaddikim who are buried there שימליצו טוב בעדנו ביום הדין to intercede on our behalf on the day of judgment."

If the tzadikim can become aroused and intercede on our behalf, what distinguishes asking living tzadikim "to do their jobs" (by using their "connections" to G-d to "work things out" for us) and asking angels to "do their jobs" from asking a deceased tzadik to "do his job"...?

"...ומרבים תחנונים and say many supplications לעורר את הצדיקים הקדושים אשר בארץ המה to arouse the holy tzaddikim who are buried there שימליצו טוב בעדנו ביום הדין to intercede on our behalf on the day of judgment."

If the tzadikim can become aroused and intercede on our behalf, what distinguishes asking living tzadikim "to do their jobs" (by using their "connections" to G-d to "work things out" for us) from asking a deceased tzadik to "do his job"...?

1. It is in issur d'orita to inquire of the dead.

2. Poskim hold that asking a dead person – "tzaddik" or not – to intercede for us is like that issur d'orita and should not be done.

3. Again, "angels of peace" are Divine messengers sent to bless humans with peace. Asking for that blessing is different from inquiring of the dead, in part because angels have never been alive and have never been dead – the terms do not apply to them. Still, some poskim do not say that stanza.

You are a worthy adversary, you have argued your point astutely.

Why don't you move to Israel and study in a Yeshiva. And learn Hebrew grammar - not the shoddy half-assed grammer they teach in Ulpan, but Hebrew grammer the way it is taught at Columbia University. You could buy a textbook and with dilligence, and you are dilligent, complete it within a year. A complete understanding of Hebrew grammar is 60% of knowing Hebrew well, and is the greatest window to being proficient in the language. If you sat and learned in Yeshiva for a few years you would certainly become a godol in Torah and perhaps sit on the Sanhedrin one day.

You have all the potential, so why not be the change you wish to see in the world?

Of course, there are many differences between the diatribes on your site and my question to you. Such an undertaking would undoubtedly be successful - it depends only on you and your willingness and determination to answer to this calling.

The world is far and few of truly intelligent men who can be proficient in Torah. Do you not see this potential as an obligation to do all that you can in this field? If not, why not?

Thanks. Been there, tried that …

Oh, what a cop-out. You are older and wiser now, and you can make it work. Are you just going to throw away a such a gift because it didn't work out the first time you tried? Your potential will all go to waste.

From a cartoon in the New Yorker:

Two dogs are talking and one says to the other, "I had my own blog for while, but I decided to go back to just pointless, incessant barking."

It's much more complicated than that.

Thanks …

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