Rebbe's Claimed 'Sorbonne Education' Debunked

Tzemach Atlas has a post definitively debunking claims – made by the Rebbe himself! – of a Sorbonne education and degree.

It also debunks much of the Rebbe's claims about his education at the University of Berlin and calls into question his (or, perhaps more appropriately, his wife's) ability to be Shabbat observant in Paris. Read the entire details in the pdf file linked immediately below:

Download Golan-Habad_eng.pdf

Comments

[Isa]

Hey Shmyara
Good work!

[sam]

u r crazy u r not normal!!!
Where did the Rebbe say that he learned in Sorbonne? Desperate people will make up anything.

[Shmarya]

sam –

Chabad claimed this for more than 50 years. Most of those years the Rebbe was well and supervised Chabad – and those claims. This is well documented and is found in almost every article written about Chabad and the Rebbe.

[Chaim]

Here is a quote from Chabad.org. Seems entirely consistent with the article you referenced. I don't know what all the fuss is:

"Shortly after their marriage, the Rebbe and his wife moved to Berlin, where the Rebbe enrolled in the University of Berlin and took courses in philosophy and mathematics.

When Hilter came to power in 1933, the Rebbe and Rebbetzin relocated to Paris, where the Rebbe continued with his studies, at the Sorbonne and at a Parisian engineering college, until 1938."

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
Shmarya you have outdone yourself in your stupidity.
1) All Tzemach did on mentalblog.com was quote an article stating that the researcher found that in his almost 10 years of life in Paris the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a also learned in and graduated from another university, he didn't prove the Rebbe didn't learn in Sorbone. He makes no such claim as he is a researcher not a potz, but your mind is cloded by anger and it's the same as taking a bribe ...
2) If a picture is worth 1000 words a video must be worth at least a million:
My Encounter with the Rebbe
An oral history project documenting the life story of the Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, King Moshiach Shlit"a
David Fakler
Paris, France - 1937
Jewish Educational Media
On January 30, 1933 Hitler was elected the German Chancellor. For a couple who was foreign and Jewish, it was time to get out of Germany. The Rebbe and his wife Chaya Mushka moved to Paris, where the Rebbe continued his studies at the University for Polytechnic at Mont Rouge and the prestigious University of Paris, known as “the Sorbonne.” David Fakler studied French with the Rebbe at the Sorbonne.

last video on this page:

chabad.org/multimedia/media.asp?AID=295121
(also linked to from my name under this post as your idiotic comments spam controls seeem to block many of the comments with links in them)
PS.I'm sure that if you issue a retraction or gasp... apology the hell will literaly freeze over. So I'm looking forward to thismentous event.
With blessing.
Ariel Sokolovsky
Long Live our Master our Teacher and our Rebbe King Moshiach Forever and Ever!

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
Shmarya's Claimed Elementary School Education' Debunked
A Harvard proffesor conducting a study on immature behavior among adults concluded that Shmarya lacks basic reading skills as well as logic and his IQ is presumed to be 85 or lower which probably qualifies him as a replacement for our esteemed President George W Bush but hardly enough for a credible Jewish blogger.
An Informal survey among the visitors of Failed Messiah .com Aka WhiningShmarya.org concluded that many of them come here to make fun of Shmarya and the small minority to defend him. The IQ check among Shmarya's defenders has shown that their IQ is even lower than his which clearly shows that their true place is among the faithfull Chassidim of Yudel profiled here :

donkeymoshiach.blogspot.com/2005/07/house-confused-cannot-stand.html

Why is it that Ahavat Yisrael is thrown out the window the second that someone questions/criticizes the Rebbe?

That doesn't make any sense Ariel. If the Rebbe were Moshiach, he could defend himself without help from internet bloggers defaming other Jews!

[rebeljew]

The article seems to sustain Sorbonne education. What do you claim that the Rebbe said (with sources if possible)? And what is the fact that contradicts it?

[rebeljew]

Shmarya

I also cannot follow what you saying about Shabbat observance. The article seems to sustain that they took off early on Friday.

[Shmarya]

Ariel and Rebel–

The article says nothing of the kind. It clearly states that the Rebbe had no degree from Humbolt (U of Berlin)and that he cannot be found in the records of the Sorbonne. His degree is from a construction college (like a US junior college/technical school). His grades were not top notch and he was not a student of note.

Rebel –

They lived too far to walk to the Jewish area of Paris. There were no close-by synagogues and no Orthodox Jewish neighbors (in fact, very few, if any, Jewish neighbors at all).

In those days, the Rebbetzin was known as a very 'modern' woman and there has been continued speculation about her level of observance. She is known in her later years to answer a ringing telephone on Shabbat. Living far away from Orthodox Jews would guard her from prying eyes and help protect her reputation – and the Rebbe's chance at gaining the leadership of Lubavitch.

[Shmarya]

As Deutsch notes, there is evidence that a condition of the Rebbe's marriage to Chaya Mussia was that the nesiut pass to Mendel Schneerson after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe. Knowing the status of the Rashag at that time, this condition seems puzzling – unless both of the Frierdiker Rebbe's single daughters were uninterested in Lubavitch and very 'modern' to boot.

When one sees that both chose to live far away from Orthodox (or, for that matter, any) Jews, and when you couple that with reports of the Rebbetzin wearing pants, not covering her hair, smoking in public (nice Jewish girls did not do this in the 1930's) and using a telephone on Shabbat conclusions can be drawn. But these conclusions are still speculative.

[sam]

Why do u make up all this bs about the Rebbetzin. Do u know who u r talking about !?!? Do u have a source for any of this?

[rebeljew]

You quote "reports", but I would be more interested to see sources. As I have pointed out in other contexts, anecdotes are of no value unless there is some independent evidence behind them.

I was simply reading the PDF that you linked and asking for sources or specific statements that you think support your conclusions. The fact that he seems to have gone out of his way to keep the Shabbat, having to make arrangements to leave early on Friday, for instance, shows me that he did indeed keep Shabbos. While he may have lived far from the "Jewish community", I can speculate that he gathered a few Jews that lived around him and formed a quiet minyan. Perhaps that is where the idea of the Chabad House came from.

[nowimintrouble]

"...with reports of the Rebbetzin wearing pants, not covering her hair, smoking in public (nice Jewish girls did not do this in the 1930's)"

Setting, no doubt, the precedent for Chabad women to be the hottest chassids around. Have you seen the 18-21 year old Chabad women looking for a shiduch? We're talking hot, hot Hot! They make other ultra-orthodox women look like they're dressed in lose potato sacks. Oh wait - some of them are...

[Rebtsvi]

Read through your pdf expecting it to be hot stuff.

It was cold borsht at best.

On the one hand, you make fun of Chabad's annecdotal history and on the other hand,
your proof is weak - at best.

You should be embarrassed to publish material of this poor quality.

Shame on you.

[Shmarya]

Okay, let's be clear:

1. They lived away from the Jewish community.

2. There is no good reason we know of for that.

3. Reports of the Rebbetzin's 'modernity' were well-known years ago. I don't remember if Deutsch touches on these or not but, rest assured, I've spoken with many historians in and of Chabad and these reports are well-known.

4. One way the distance from the Jewish quarter can be explained by the need to hide that 'modernity' and/or to hide the 'modernity of Shayna and her husband.

5. We know that the Rebbe did not receive a degree from Humbolt University (U of Berlin) or the Sorbonne. He went to a trade school, got less than top notch grades but did finally graduate. His brother-in-law flunked out.

6. This says little good for the Schneersohn family, which may be why the myth of "many advanced degrees" and a "Sorbonne education" was started.

7. Finally, living within a Jewish community is a halakha, one that Mendel Schneerson, Mendel Horenstein and their wives chose to ignore. Why was this so?

[Joe in Australia]

You've moved away from "claims of a Sorbonne education and a degree" being "another Chabad lie" to "The Rebbe did not receive a degree from ... the Sorbonne".

Did the Rebbe ever claim that he had? The document you cited expressly confirmed that he *did* have a degree and *had* studied at the Sorbonne, albeit only by auditing courses.

[Beam your self up Scotty]

Scotty,

You are not living in any Jewish community, you are therefore in violation of Halacha. You are not married, should we specualte that you are only interested in diddling little boys?

[sam]

Deitsh does not mention it. Don't give me "historians of Chabad" maybe you mena Brian Riggs is he your expert on Chabad. You r not talking about stam a nobody, ur talking about the daughter of the Fr Rebbe and the wife of the Rebbe (a great woman in her own right). DOn't come in with your apikorsishe bs unless u can back it up.

[Isa]

In the 70's at a table of real orthodox rabbi, there was talk and awe about the Rebbe went to the Sorbonne and was an electrical engineer.
There was a time when rabbis were held in awe, but I personally experienced with rabbis that GROSSLY faked their academic acievments. Another person who claimed to be a rabbi wasn't and somebody else that was a sex hassaser. Then there are Web blogs that deal with rabbis who are child molesters.
No more will rabbis be held in awe
Please provide your transcript
Please provide your Smecha
Please provide some personal details so we can do a criminal background check.
Ask these questions then one can ferret the evil

[thanbo]

Until Deutsch's books, all I ever heard from Lubavitchers about the Rebbe's secular education was "he studied electrical engineering at the Sorbonne", sometimes with the addition "he worked at the Brooklyn Navy Yard".

This began to come apart when people noted that the Sorbonne is the Faculte des Arts et Metiers of the Universite de Paris, they don't teach engineering. This Friedman article clarifies things nicely - he studied at a trade school, became a licensed engineer (no mean feat, according to various engineers in this country), and audited some courses in language and philosophy at the Sorbonne.

But there is plenty of Chabad propaganda out there that maintains the fiction of "studying engineering at the Sorbonne". Do a Google search for "Rebbe Schneerson engineering Sorbonne", and lots comes up, e.g. http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article.asp?AID=61865 or any number of other sites.

It's as if someone had the idea of "the Sorbonne is the top French university, the rebbe studied engineering, of course he must have studied it at the Sorbonne, he's the top guy after all" without any real understanding of the school situation in real-life Paris.

[Shmarya]

Here is the entire article referred to in the post above. Please note that Chabad did ***NOT*** correct the Sorbonne references, perhaps because doing so would have meant an acknowledgement that Swados was lied to:

http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article.asp?AID=61865

He Could Melt A Blizzard
By Harvey Swados

Thirty-five years ago, the novelist Harvey Swados visited Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, on the occasion of a "farbrengen"

- a traditional gathering of the adherents of the Lubavitch movement - and again privately, when they were granted a late-night audience.

The article my father wrote about his experience with the Rebbe, who passed away on June 12, 1994, at the age of 92, was, somewhat inexplicably, never published. It lay in the archives of the University of Massachusetts at Amherst until 1993, when a writer who was researching material for a possible biography came across it and brought it to the family's attention.

An excerpt from the article was printed on the New York Times op-ed page two days after the Rebbe's passing. Here is the full text of the article.

- Robin Swados

Before I learned in the winter of 1964 that the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the then sixty-two year old leader of Hasidic Jewry, would receive me in audience, I had made several visits to these devout Russian Jews' Brooklyn Headquarters. The modest brick building, between Flatbush and Crown Heights on Eastern Parkway, houses publishing offices, a school for children, a Yeshiva for young men and a substantial auditorium.

My first visit was merely to introduce myself to their public relations man, a pleasant, bearded young Boston Latin School graduate named Yehuda Krinsky. I wanted to clarify in my mind the distinction between these people and the Hungarian Hasidim led by the Satmar Rebbe, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum.

It was at Rabbi Krinsky's suggestion that I paid my second visit, some weeks later, on the occasion of a farbrengen, a traditional gathering of the adherents of this two hundred year-old movement to discuss developments, recount tales of Rabbis, and bolster each other in the faith. The one that I attended is an annual event, commemorating the miraculous release of the late Rebbe from a Russian prison. It is often swelled by the arrival of chartered planeloads of Hasidic Jews from abroad.

When I arrived, at about eight-thirty, and made my way past the Irish cops chatting amiably with clusters of orthodox Jews whose earlocks hung down beneath their broad-brimmed hats, the crowd of faithful and curious was already dense, and the Rebbe had just made his way to the dais. The ceremonial of oratory, toasts, and singing would go on uninterruptedly for five or six hours.

I had been prepared for a crowd, but not for this crushing mob of bearded males, many of them like myself in winter overcoats which they could not possibly raise their arms to remove; nor for the little seven and eight year-olds, their heads uniformly covered with leather helmets (the kind that we called 'Lindy hats' when I was that age), squeezed and swaying so that I feared for their safety.

Someone recognized me as an invited guest, and I was passed along through a side entrance, and so found myself wedged on a corner of the platform not six feet from the Rebbe, who was addressing the throng from a chair in which he was seated behind a long table covered with a white cloth, and flanked by two rows of the dignified, black-frocked elders of the Hasidic movement.

Looking out at the congregants, I saw what the Rebbe must have seen: a most remarkable assemblage, and one which for my part I shall never forget.

Seated facing at each other at three long tables, also covered with linen cloths on which stood an occasional bottle of Tokay Kosher wine, a dish of cookies, a paper sack filled with cakes, were several hundred men, ranging in age from their twenties to their seventies.

Some were in business suits, others in the elegant black dressing gown that a pious Hasid wears for festive occasions, tied in the middle with a gartel, the sash that symbolizes the separation of man's higher mental and spiritual qualities from the inferior ones. Perhaps nine out of ten were bearded -- not for convenience, or perhaps vanity, as I was myself, but in accordance with religious prescriptions -- and for some moments I was lost in contemplation of the immense variety of thickets, red, brown, black, gray, some sparse, others extravagantly luxuriant, in which many of their wearers allowed their fingers to stray, thoughtfully and proudly.

But as I freed myself from contemplation of the panorama of beards over the white tables, I became aware of the younger men closely packed against either wall, standing on raised planks like bleachers, of the many hundreds wedged tightly together at the rear of the hall, among whom I too had been squashed, and of those in the balcony, which was concealed from the rest of us by tinted green glass - because, I realized, it was reserved for female congregants, some carrying little ones, their noses pressed to the glass. I became aware, too, of how these hundreds thronged together were attending, with a kind of passionate patience, to the speech of the Rebbe, who was addressing them calmly and steadily in a fluent Yiddish, without rising or raising his voice.

Since I could not follow the complex line of his discourse, with its parables taken from traditional Hasidic tales and homely incidents, interwoven with abstruse philosophical theory, I was free to stare at all those around me -- rabbis, merchants, scholars, small businessmen, students, workmen -- who were listening with an intensity I had never encountered, whether in a classroom, at the public lecturn, or at a religious or political rally.

Several teen-age boys, their beards just starting to sprout, their eyes half-closed, trancelike, unseeing, swayed back and forth rapidly from the waist up, almost as if their torsos were propelled by some independent internal motor, in the contained ecstasy of their participation in the Rebbe's peroration.

Behind me, his hands clasped in his lap as he listened, quite motionless, sat a well-known mathematician from a midwestern university. Just below me, a sturdy rough-hewn man hunched over the table in profound thought as if carved of wood, his shaggy brows and greying beard shaded by the peak of a Russian workman's cap of the kind that one sees in old photographs of Russian revolutionaries and litterateurs. Who could he be? I discovered later that he had been released only two weeks before from twenty years of captivity in Soviet prison camps (where he had gained extraordinary renown for selfless generosity), and that he had flown from London relatives directly to this farbrengen in order that he might listen to the Rebbe.

Meanwhile the Rebbe, having concluded his first address of the evening, moistened his lips with the wine gass, and accepted, with a smiling inclination of the head, toasts eagerly offered him by those about him. It was then that the singing began.

At first spontaneous, soon encouraged and "conducted" by the Rebbe, who swung his forearms gaily, rhythmically to the beat of the music from his seated position, the simple song rose to a pitch of unrestrained enthusiasm, with the chorus repeated ten, fifteen times, each time wilder and faster. A man would have had to be made of stone not to respond to this great release of joyous energy. I did not know the words, but I found myself singing along with all those who showed their teeth through their beards bobbing from side to side in time to the music, often hopping up and down as well.

Suddenly, at the slightest of signals from the Rebbe, everyone fell silent. Refreshed and restored, they reverted to their posture of rapt attentiveness while the Rebbe resumed speaking for another three quarters of an hour. Fascinated by this alternation of intense intellectual virtuosity and physical release through song (the Rebbe continued speaking, I was told later, until about three o'clock in the morning), I stayed until perhaps midnight before going off to a neighborhood Hasidic hangout with a warm-hearted young Lubavitcher.

I had seen two aspects of Rabbi Schneerson, the coolly analytical and the gaily earthy; in each role he was the charismatic leader, gaining the rapt devotion of his followers. Others had told me that this scholar-philosopher, fluent in some ten languages and an engineering graduate of the Sorbonne before he accepted the task of leadership of the Lubavitcher Hasidim, was even more impressive -- if more difficult to see -- in private conversation.

I jumped at the opportunity to talk with the Rebbe, even though my appointment was for eleven o'clock on the night of what turned out to be the winter's fiercest snowstorm. Not only was my wife given welcome shelter in the building from the blinding snow -- there were no other women in sight, at this late hour the last of the Yeshiva students were still droning away in sing-song at their studies -- but the Rebbe himself greeted her most kindly.

"We don't discriminate here," he said with a smile, and after he bade us seat ourselves before his desk, he inquired in an English that was heavily accented but more fluent than my own, whether I would mind if he answered my questions in Yiddish.

Rabbi Schneerson's office, by contrast with the Victorian opulence of that of the Satmar Rebbe, was as bleak as the rest of the dingy building, the bare Venetian blinds drawn against the beating snow outside, the walls bare also, and with nothing on his desk but a pad and a telephone.

The Rebbe sat very still, attending to my queries with his head bent forward so that his broad-brimmed hat shaded his face, which appeared deceptively ruddy. He is a strikingly handsome man, whose almost classically regular features are not at all obscured by a graying beard which is full but not bushy, and whose pale blue eyes remain fixed upon you with an unblinking directness that can be disconcerting.

He rather reminds one of a Rembrandt rabbi in the shadowed planes of his composed countenance, which is not simply dignified but somber in repose; and yet the tilt of his hat seems at times almost rakish, and the glint of his eyes under its brim puts you in mind of those gifted bohemians of 19th-century Paris whom one encounters in Impressionist portraits. It is easy to imagine the figure he must have cut as a young man at the Sorbonne.

I began, as I had by the Satmar Rebbe, by asking his opinion of the causes of the holocaust which resulted in the extinction of six million European Jews -- and of the controversy about the behavior of the German masses and the Jewish leadership, which has tormented the western world ever since, particularly since the appearance of Hannah Arendt's book on the Eichmann trial. His reply made no reference to abstractions, whether theological or philosophical, nor did he remark -- as had the Satmar Rebbe -- on the sins the victims must have committed to be punished so terribly by God. He pointed instead to political realities, to the incredible difficulties in maintaining one's faith under a totalitarian regime.

Speaking of the hardship and the anguish undergone by the Jews of Communist Russia, he asked rhetorically: How much more difficult do you suppose it was to keep hold of one's integrity under the crushing weight of the German tyrants, who were so much more efficient than the Russians? No, he said firmly, the miracle was that there was any resistance at all, that there was any organization at all, that there was any leadership at all.

This was not exactly what I had expected. Was it his opinion, then, that the tragedy was not a unique visitation upon the Jewish people, and that it could happen again?

"Morgen in der fruh," he replied unhesitatingly. "Tomorrow morning."

Why was he so certain? The Rebbe launched into an analysis of the German atrocities in a rhetoric that shifted eloquently and unhesitatingly, often in the same sentence, from English (for my benefit) to Yiddish (for nuance and precision). He did not speak mystically, nor did he harp on the German national character and its supposed affinity for Jew-hatred.

Rather, he insisted upon the Germans' obedience to authority and their unquestioning carrying out of orders -- even the most bestial -- as a cultural-historical phenomenon that was the product of many generations of deliberate inculcation.

Then what future did he envision for the Jewish people? Would it not seem that they would tend to polarize -- either to return to Israel, the land of their fathers, or to amalgamate with the general populace of such countries as the United States and Russia?

The Rebbe smiled. "No," he replied, "in my experience, the Jewish people have been moving from left to right."

Coming from his lips, the expression had almost political ring to it. At my evident puzzlement, he repeated the phrase, which I took to mean that he had been witnessing a kind of religious revival among the new generation of Jewry.

In this connection, I was most curious to learn what this distinguished leader of Hasidic Jewry, consulted not alone by humble followers desiring his blessing and his counsel on personal problems, but also by such political figures as the President of Israel, would have to say about Martin Buber, internationally renowned for his presentation of Hasidic tales and his incorporation of aspects of Hasidic beliefs into existentialist patterns of thought.

In his response, the Rebbe turned to analogies, I now began to see, that would be more easily comprehended by me than those drawn from more recondite sources.

"The Buber versions of our Hasidic tales can be compared to reproductions of works of art. One gets a sense of what a great painting is like from a print, but one cannot apprehend the painting from the print any more than one can apprehend a great sculpture from a plaster copy. In terms of their value, it is true that some people are stirred by reproductions and copies to seek out the original and discover the secrets of its greatness. Most, however, are inclined to take simple satisfaction in the delusion that they have been given a painless revelation of artistic profundity. To the extent that Buber leads people to think that they are getting a genuine understanding of Hasidism without having to learn from the source, his influence is not constructive."

At this point I decided that I might safely inquire as to what the Lubavitcher Rebbe thought of the conduct of the Satmar Rebbe, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum. Rabbi Schneerson leaned back and smiled at me, amused.

As the shadow of his hat brim was removed, his face changed color, looking no longer ruddy but pallid, almost translucent. "Why should I comment," he asked good-humoredly, "about the relationship between a man in Williamsburg whom I do not know and the State of Israel, which I have never visited? It is one thing for me to discuss the Germans and the Jews -- I am a Jew, and my own people have suffered and died at the hands of the Nazis. But this other question of yours really does not concern me."

I forbore to press the point, particularly since we had already been talking for over half an hour, and I did not wish to encroach on his time or on that of those who were waiting patiently to see him. I thanked him for his courtesy and half rose to leave, when he restrained me with a motion of his hand.

"Now that you have interviewed me, I'd like to interview you. Unless you have any objections?"

"Please," I said, "go right ahead."

"But I am afraid that I won't be as diplomatic with you as you have been with me." And the Rebbe grinned wickedly at me.

After a few questions about my background, he asked me about the subject matter of my books. When I protested that it was not easy to sum up in a sentence or two books that had taken me years to write, he retorted, "Surely I can expect a better summation from you than from anyone else."

He seemed particularly interested in my description of On the Line, a book in which I had attempted, by means of a series of fictional portraits of auto assembly workers, to demonstrate the impact of their work on their lives. It was a theme I had originally selected because it seemed to me, as a former factory worker, that it was being neglected by other novelists.

"What conclusions did you come to?"

The question nettled me. It struck me as obtuse, coming from a man of such subtle perception.

"Did you suggest," he persisted, "that the unhappy workers, the exploited workers, the workers chained to their machines, should revolt?"

"Of course not. It would have been unrealistic."

"What relation would you say that your book bears to the early work of Upton Sinclair?"

I was flabbergasted. Here I was, sitting in the study of a scholar of mystic lore late on a wintry night, and discussing not Chabad Hasidism, Aristotelianism or scholasticism but proletarian literature! "Why," I said, "I would hope that it is less narrowly propagandistic than Sinclair's. I was trying to capture a mood of frustration rather than one of revolution."

Suddenly I realized that he had led me to the answer that he was seeking -- and what was more, with his next query I realized how many steps ahead of my faltering mind: "You could not conscientiously recommend revolution for your unhappy workers in a free country, or see it as a practical perspective for their leaders. Then how could one demand it from those who were being crushed and destroyed by the Nazis?"

"But when I questioned you, I wasn't associating myself with the Arendt positon on Eichmann and the Jewish leaders," I protested. "I was simply trying to solicit your opinion of a question that has troubled me deeply."

"I realize that," the Rebbe smiled. "I am only suggesting that you might search for some of the answers in your own background and your own writing. After all, you have certain responsibilities which the ordinary man does not -- your words affect not just your own family and friends but thousands of readers."

"I'm not sure I know what those responsibilities are."

"First, there is the responsibility to understand the past. Earlier, you asked me about the future of Judaism. Supposing I ask you how you explain the past, the survival of Judaism over three millennia."

"Well," I said a bit uneasily, "the negative force of persecution has certainly driven people together who might otherwise disintegrate. I'm not certain that the disappearance of that persecution, whether through statehood in Israel or through the extension of democracy in this country, wouldn't weaken or destroy what you think of as Jewishness."

"Do you really think that only a negative force unites the little tailor in Melbourne and the Rothschild in Paris?"

"I wouldn't deny the positive aspects of Judaism."

"Then suppose that scientific inquiry and historical research lead you to conclude that factors which you might regard as irrational have contributed to the continuity of Judaism. Wouldn't you feel logically bound to acknowledge the power of the irrational, even though you declined to embrace it?"

Hypnotized by the elegance with which he was leading me to meet him on his own grounds, I assented; as he continued, he turned occasionally to the metaphors of science, partly, I was sure, because they came to his mind as readily as the theological, and partly because he realized that I would find them intellectually more comfortable.

"The artist who wishes to present something more original than those copies of which we were speaking" -- once again he was making a connection between his responses to my questions and mine to his -- "must bear in mind his responsibility not only to his readers but to his past, his heritage."

"You have a certain talent, a gift for expressing yourself so that thousands are swayed by what you write. Where does that talent come from?"

I was beginning to sweat. "Partly from hard work. From practice, from study."

"Naturally. But is it unscientific to suggest that you might owe some of it to your forebears? You are not self-created, you did not spring from nothing."

"I recognize," I said desperately, "that in the genes, the chromosomes&"

"If you wish. The point is, isn't it, that something has been transmitted to you by your father, your grandfather, your great-grandfather, down through the ages? And that you owe them a debt, a debt which you have the responsibility to try to repay?"

Now I was sweating heavily. In the silence that enveloped the room I could hear my watch ticking; my wife's hands, I noticed, were clenched as tightly as my own. But the Rebbe sat relaxed, seemingly with all the time in the world for me to fumble for responses. I had the feeling, like a student faking, that if I didn't say something, no matter what, I would be stuck here forever.

"Are you suggesting, Rebbe," I asked, "that I should re-examine my writing, or my personal code and my private life?"

"Doesn't one relate to the other? Doesn't one imply the other?"

"That's a complicated question."

"Yes," he smiled amiably, "it certainly is." He paused. "I warned you that I wouldn't be diplomatic, didn't I?"

Silence again. Then I thanked him, as we all arose, for being so generous with his time. The Rebbe waved that aside. "We'll see," he said, "what your writing turns out like in the time ahead."

For a moment I thought he was referring to what I might write about our meeting; then I realized that few things could matter less to him. For he is a man quite without vanity, and what he was expressing was the hope that my work would go well -- certainly better than before, which is always devoutly to be wished...

Outside, the snow was blowing furiously, piling up in swirling drifts along Eastern Parkway. Several Lubavitcher stood on the side with their wives, bundling up against the blast, but waiting nonetheless to hear our account of what the Rebbe had said to us.

The last thing in the world I wanted was to stand in the howling snow and summarize an hour and a half of intensely concentrated conversation, but they were so innocently eager that I had to try to give them some notion of what their leader had said to me -- if not of my own reaction.

"Tell me," demanded one, beaming with pride at my recounting of the intellectual agility of Rabbi Schneerson, "what kind of impression did the Rebbe make on you? I know it's cold, but just tell me in one word."

There it was again. This time I did not bridle; perhaps the traditional good humor of the Hasidim as well as their bluntness had penetrated my chilled flesh at last. "If I had to choose one word to characterize him," I said, surprising myself more than my nodding listeners, "I guess I would choose the word 'kindly.'"

And my wife and I clambered into our snow-covered automobile for the long dangerous drive back home, both of us silent for a long time, wrapped in our own thoughts.

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[Shmarya]

From Answers.com:

http://www.answers.com/topic/menachem-mendel-schneerson

"… Born in Nikolaiev, Ukraine, Schneerson received mostly private tuition. He was enrolled in the secular Yekaterinoslav University for part-time study of mathematics at the age of 16. His father Rabbi Levi Yitzchok Schneerson, a renowned kabbalist who served as the Chief Rabbi of Yekaterinoslav (Dnepropetrovsk) from 1907-1939, was his primary teacher. He intensively studied Talmud and rabbinic literature, as well as the hasidic view of Jewish mysticism and Kabbalah. He married Chaya Mushka Schneerson in 1929 and went to live in Berlin, Germany, and study engineering and philosophy at one of its universities. ***Lubavitch publications state that he received "degrees at Heidelberg",*** although some surmise that this is "anecdotal". During his time in Berlin, he forged friendships with two other young rabbis studying in Berlin: Joseph Soloveitchik and Yitzchok Hutner.…"

1. The Rebbe received no degrees while in Germany.

2. He did not study engineering in Germany.

3. It is not clear that he forged a friendship with either rabbi. (See PDF article linked in the main body of this post.)

4. The source for all this misinformation is Chabad.

[rebeljew]

Shmarya

The source for all of this misinformation is information getting passed around and mished mercilessly by people, desperate to summarize reams of information which they do not understand.

Example: The Rebbe had an electrical engineering certificate / degree. (True) The Rebbe went to classes at the Sorbonne (plausibly true in some regard). Ergo, it is summarized as the "The Rebbe got an engineering degree at the Sorbonne." (An implausible claim)

This, plus the ever present inclination to romanticize the past is more likely the source of this misinformation than willful distortion. Admittedly, it is mostly distortion though.

[Naftoli]

"Rabbi" David Rosen is the son of R.Kopul Rosen the founder of Carmel College in England.

His brothers are Mickey Rosen and Jeremy Rosen
http://www.jeremyrosen.com/
http://www.yakar.org.uk/home.asp
very left-wing "Orthodox", verging on Masorti-onservative, prominent in Yakar, Sulha, "Land for Peace" and all sorts of milquetoast compromise shtuss.

In short, the types that Shamrya would like to have as his mentors!

Read how David Rosen blatantly lied about his own qualifications!
http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/david_rosen.htm

[Shmarya]

Naftoli –

I gave Luke that information. Don't believe me? Ask him.

[Shmarya]

Rebel –

The Rebbe saw these misrepresentations many times – and let them stand unchallenged.

And they still go on.

I spoke yesterday with an academeic who recounted for me a head shaliach's recent description of the Rebbe's education: Many degrees. Sat in his classes in the Sorbonne with an open gemara concealed inside of an open , learned gemara all during his classes, still got excellent grades. When a teacher would ask him a question, the Rebbe would look up from his gemara and correctly answer.

This 'description' was given in the last couple of months. It also matches the 'description' I was given by a head shaliach, first 23 years ago and then perhaps a dozen times over the years in farbrengens, classes, etc.

[Isa]

Hey Naftoli:
That rabbi Rosen corrected his academics.
See that rabbi is not claiming to be some Mesiah or even a navi (prophet)
However the momment that the Rebbi claimed to be the Mesiah then he has to and will be held to a higher standard.
By the way I was the one that initially stumbled onto the fake degrees. I am MORE saddend by corrupted rabbis that give a kosher 'certificate' when bad stuff is done.
Isa

[Bo]

Do any of you claim to be followers of the Rebbe?
I sure hope not....

Is it possible that stories got mixed up as passed along to many people? Yes. The Rebbe never spoke of an engineering degree at the Sorbonne. Was the Rebbe at the Sorbonne? Eyewitnesses confirm this.: http://www.jemedia.org/MyEncounter/watch.html

David Fakler Posted: 9/26/05
Paris, France - 1937

On January 30, 1933 Hitler was elected the German Chancellor. For a couple who was foreign and Jewish, it was time to get out of Germany. The Rebbe and his wife Chaya Mushka moved to Paris, where the Rebbe continued his studies at the University for Polytechnic at Mont Rouge and the prestigious University of Paris, known as “the Sorbonne.” David Fakler studied French with the Rebbe at the Sorbonne.

Shmarya, this is much ado about nothing. The Rebbe never once addressed the issue, nor is the claim found in any biographical information that the Rebbe authorized. The Rebbe studied Engineering and also studied at the Sorbonne (as confirmed by those who knew him then). If some mixed the two facts together, well, what does that have to do with the Rebbe's own accounts which are accurate?

[Shmarya]

The Rebbe's Sorbonne "degrees," including his "engineering degree," were widely publicized in OFFICIAL Chabad publications during the Rebbe's lifetime, while he was well.

Further, the Rebbe claimed a Sorbonne "education" and "science degrees" in the same breath.

Fraud, pure and simple.

[Shmarya]

The Rebbe was never a registered student at the Sorbonne.

[Shmarya]

JEM, a division of Chabad, so to speak, today released a video that contains pictures of the Sorbonne registration documents of Menachem Mendel Schneerson. They're dated November 30, 1937. There are no records of any tests taken and passed or of degrees granted. It seems the Rebbe registered, perhaps to avoid deportation to Russia, perhaps to audit classes, perhaps for both reasons.

In summary, the Rebbe took for less than 1.5 years at the University of Berlin even though he lived in Berlin for about seven years. He was not granted any degree.

He studied, and did poorly in both grades and attendance, at a technical college in Paris. He eventually graduated with a degree in Electrical Engineering. This college is not part of the Sorbonne.

He then registered as a student at the Sorbonne. There is no record of any tests taken and passed or of degrees granted. All there is is the initial registration document.

[Shmarya]

Correction: He studied at the University of Berlin for 1.5 semesters, not 1.5 years and he was not in a degree-granting program – he was auditing classes only.

[Shmarya]

A friend of Barry Gourary told me today that Barry told him years ago that his uncle (the Rebbe) was a perpetual student hanging out at these universities, never in any degree-granting program. He audited a few classes and hung out the rest of the time – that would be years of simply hanging out.

And Chabad's "discovery" of the Rebbe's registration document seems to confirm this.

[Talmid]

Shmarya:

From the last three posts here, it is proven that at least two of your assertions were false:

1) You asserted that the Rebbe never learned in Berlin--confirmed as false (in your own words: "He studied at...Berlin for 1.5 semesters").

2) You asserted that the Rebbe never learned at the Sorbonne--confirmed as false (in your own words: "Then he registered as a student at the Sorbonne")

I'm glad you were man enough to admit that you were wrong.

You have, nonetheless, spread lies about the Rebbe, and misled a lot of people.

You will eventually come to regret this campaign of yours and see that you gave up what could have been the happiest years of your life to "Get even" for not getting an answer from the Rebbe as quick as you wanted.

Meanwhile, you are wasting your time: those who agree with you already hate the Rebbe.

Good luck with everything.

[Shmarya]

Let me help you:

Chabad claimed degrees from Berlin and the Sorbonne. Both claims are false.

The Rebbe took a couple of classes in Berlin. He registered in the Sorbonne but no completed classes show up. Neither institution granted the Rebbe any degrees.

The only people spreading lies here are Chabad, who claimed "advanced" degrees for the Rebbe from Berlin and the Sorbonne and the Rebbe himself who allowed those false claims made in his name to stand.

[Talmid]

Shmarya:

I see the bar is moving after the facts come in.

First it was "the Rebbe never learned at the Sorbonne or Berlin."

Now, it is "the Rebbe never got any degrees from the Sorbonne or Berlin."

Next, it will probably be "the Rebbe never got any advanced degrees from the Sorbonne or Berlin."

I suppose after that will be "the Rebbe was never a professor at the Sorbonne or Berlin."

And that would logically be followed by "the Rebbe was never on the Board of Trustees for the Sorbonne or Berlin."

Probably after that would come "the Rebbe was not a founder of the Sorbonne or Berlin."

I don't know what was said by the Rebbe, were you personally present when these things were said?

While I don't know what the Rebbe himself said, I do know that YOU lied right here on this website.

Look in the mirror if you are looking for a false prophet.

[Shmarya]

No. Try to process.

1. Chabad made false claims: multiple, advanced degrees from Berlin and the Sorbonne.

2. Those claims are false.

3. The work done by historians like Menachem Friedman and Shaul Shimon Deutsch has shown the world that Chabad lied. (The earliest lie is noted by Friedman – at the Rebbe's wedding the claim of degrees from Berlin was made by the Frierdiker Rebbe's court and publicized in a Warsaw Jewish paper.)

4. No bar is being moved by me. The original claim is multiple, advanced degrees from the Sorbonne and Berlin, NOT that no degrees were granted.

In other words, the LIE comes first, the debunking of that lie follows.

Therefore, the "bar" you talk about was first set by Chabad.

It is CHABAD (and you) that is now moving the bar, trying to make a semester and 1/2 at Berlin equivalent to a degree and registration but no completed classes at the Sorbonne equivalent to another degree.

5. Chabad lied. The Rebbe lied. And you now try to cover for them.

That is the truth.

[Talmid]

Sorry.

You're full of it.

The Rebbe's education was never an issue for most people--it has no bearing on his success as a leader and the level of his intellect (which was far above your's or mine).

YOU and your ilk made his education an issue.

Therefore, YOU have placed the bar where it is and continue to move it.

Just because some shvantz in Israel couldn't find documentation 60 years later proves nothing.

If you want proof, ask the Rebbe directly.

None of you had the courage to try this while he was alive because he would have embarassed you (and you know it).

Sorry. It is YOU who has lied. And it is YOU who is trying to cover for the fact that you got this wrong (like so many other things you have jumped on before the facts were in).

Sorry. YOU are wrong.

Don't worry--I still love you. *SMOOCH*

[Shmarya]

Again, Chabad made false claims about the Rebbe's secular education and the Rebbe let those claims stand.

The man lied. His hasidim lied. And you cover for those lies.

The Rebbe's supposed advanced Berlin and Sorbonne degrees were used to convince other rabbis to defer to the Rebbe's understanding of various issues.

His supposed degrees were used to lure unsuspecting Jews into the Chabad orbit.

His supposed degrees were used to raise money for Chabad.

Again, Chabad lied, the Rebbe lied and you cover up for them.

[Talmid]

Wrong....

You're still lying and everyone who reads your BS knows that.

Everyone knows what you said in the past:

"THE REBBE NEVER WHEN TO THE SORBONNE"

"THE REBBE NEVER WHEN TO BERLIN"

These statements have all been proven false. Now you twist your statements; we all know what you said:

You're the liar. And when you lie about one thing, you can't be trusted about other things either.

If you even wrote the Rebbe, which is certainly not likely, you probably got the Rebbe's answer. You either didn't like what he said, or you didn't understand it. My guess is that you're just lying about that too--you couldn't grasp the Rebbe's teachings so you got angry at him for being smarter than you.

Your lies about getting ready to sit for smicha are obvious to anyone reading this blog as well. You make anti-Rubashkin tee-shirt logos: "I got slaughtered glatt kosher...."

An animal doesn't get slaughtered "glatt kosher." The animal gets slaughtered and its lungs are checked to see if it is glatt kosher. Anyone who knows the first thing about kashrus knows that. You certainly didn't learn Chulin. Another lie.

It's more than obvious that you just can't stand knowing that the Rebbe was a million times smarter than you...so you lied about a known fact to try and make it seem that the Rebbe wasn't who he was.

Then you lied about some "tie to Lubavitch" to make yourself seem more believable. However, your lies are pretty weak--we can all see through them.

All except the willing believers who believe your trashy tabloid postings: They already hate the Rebbe; for the same reasons you do. Do you think that you are convincing them of anything?

You're a liar right now. But you could be a lot more than you're making yourself out to be. If, instead of improving yourself, you want to be a loser (as well as a liar), keep up your self-destructive behavior--that's your choice.

Real men (and women) don't blame others for their failings.

What you should do is admit to everyone that you lied about all of these things. It's completely obvious to all of us.

You will take the first steps toward becoming a normal person; and getting over your anger at the world. You'll be taking responsibility for your own problems, instead of pinning them on a dead person.

If you want to keep lying, then good luck to you. You may want to seek some help in making up better lies though--your current ones are pretty bad.

Be well.

[Shmarya]

Try to process:

1. Chabad has an 80 year record of claiming DEGREES from Berlin and the Sorbonne.

2. Those claims are FALSE.

3. Taking a semester of classes does NOT equal a degree.

4. Registering at the Sorbonne but NOT taking tests, writing papers, doing work does NOT equal a degree.

5. Getting a degree from a third rate "construction" school does NOT equal either degrees from the Sorbonne or Berlin.

6. YOU are nothing more than an apologist for Chabad's lies.

[Talmid]

Try and process:

1. You lied about your ties to Lubavitch.

2. You lied about sending letters to the Rebbe.

3. You lied about (not) getting an Answer from the Rebbe.

4. You lied about studying for smicha.

5. You lied about the Rebbe's education.

6. You have been exposed as a liar.

7. You can't be trusted.

8. You're nothing but another angry person who blames Lubavitch for all the world's problems.

Adios Muchacho.

[Shmarya]

Everyone knows what you said in the past:

"THE REBBE NEVER WHEN TO THE SORBONNE"

"THE REBBE NEVER WHEN TO BERLIN"

I did a site search for these 'quotes.' Nothing comes up.

I searched further. Still nothing.

But it is clear I wrote the rebbe went to Berlin but noted no degrees were awarded him.

I wrote there was no evidence of any Sorbonne student status, etc. Later, last month, in fact, Chabad released the Rebbe's Sorbonne registration documents. I then posted that information, noting there was still no evidence of any classes taken, tests turned in, papers written, etc. This evidence exists for other Sorbonne students of that era, but NOT for Mendel Schneerson.

There are no records for the Rebbe and there are no known witnesses to any class attendence by him.

I reported Chabad's find, just as I reported the Rebbe's lack of degrees, etc.

You on the other hand lied about what I wrote.

[Shmarya]

Try and process:

1. You lied about your ties to Lubavitch.

2. You lied about sending letters to the Rebbe.

3. You lied about (not) getting an Answer from the Rebbe.

4. You lied about studying for smicha.

5. You lied about the Rebbe's education.

6. You have been exposed as a liar.

7. You can't be trusted.

8. You're nothing but another angry person who blames Lubavitch for
all the world's problems.

So this is what it comes down to, eh? Lies and name calling from a Chabadnik?

I lied about my ties to Chabad? I lied about my letters to the Rebbe, etc.?

The letters are posted here as scans along with the postal receipts:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2004/10/the_documents.html

Now why not run along to 770 like a good little Chabadnik and bow down to your idol?

[Your Buddy]

I don't bow to idols and I don't go to 770.

We weren't born yesterday--you forgot to attempt to dispute the other things I wrote: you lied about smicha, etc.

Your lies on the letters are clear. You attempted to smear the Rebbe. Anyone with a brain knows this.

--Talmid (looks like my pointing out your lies made you block me from posting comments).

We're smarter than you think

--Talmid

[Talmid]

He didn't like that I pointed out his lies...

Tried to block me from commenting...

Not nice shmarya.

[Shmarya]

I did not lie about anything.

Again, Chabad first lied about the Rebbe's degrees when he married the Rayyatz's daughter.

Chabad continued to lie about those degrees until they were outed by Professor Menachem Friedman and others.

You are nothing more than an apologist for those lies, and for your Rebbe who allowed them to be told in his name.

[Shmarya]

Again, anyone who wishes can read the letters I sent to the Rebbe and see the certified mail receipt here, along with the Rebbe's response to me and more.

I later worked for Chabad. I ran a Chabad House at one point. Hundreds of people know this to be true, just as many people know I learned for smicha.