Praying To The Dead, #3: Writing A Letter To The Dead? Receiving Blessings From The Dead? It's Official Chabad Theology

From the New Jersey Jewish News:

“We’re calling it ‘A Spiritual Day in Brooklyn,’” said Rabbi Eliezer Zaklikovsky, religious leader of the Chabad Jewish Center of Monroe Township, a division of Chabad Lubavitch of Greater Mercer County, as the crowded bus made its lumbering way to New York. “The main thing is to have people have the experience of praying at the gravesite of a tzadik. They write a letter to the rebbe, give charity, meditate, read the note, tear it up, request a blessing.

“I’m hoping they appreciate the experience of being able to pray at the graveside of a spiritual giant,” the rabbi said. “I want people to have that experience, to bring them closer to God and the Jewish community, and to leave a little bit more inspired.

“It’s a spiritual type of experience, on the one hand,” he added. “On the other hand, there’s a lot of nostalgia in Crown Heights. They’ll see what it’s like in a Chabad community. There’s a lot of mystique involved. It’ll be a nice day of nostalgia and inspiration.”

The sad thing is Zaklikovsky is not a messianist and is very close to the head of Chabad, Rabbi Yehuda Krinsky. ( Note Zaklikovsky calls 770 "Beis Agudas Chasidei Chabad.")

Writing a letter to a dead rabbi and asking for the dead rabbi's blessing is official Chabad theology.

Hat tip: 'Minnesota Twin'.

Comments

[Dr. Who]

Asking the dead to intervene and help is an ancient Jewish custom dating back to Caleb. You are just rehasing your old biases and ignoring Jewish tradition and picking and choosing whatever you see to fit your bias agenda.

[Shmarya]

Nope. For example, check out the Ben Ish Chai, year 1, I forget which parsha but it's about the halakhot of Erev Rosh Hashana. He makes it very clear that the dead are NOT to be addressed – all prayers even at the grave of a tzadik are directed only to God. This is also mention in the Shulkhan Arukh, but it's 1.5 mins before Shabbat and I can't cite the exact place for you right now.

[Avodas Avoda]

Its good to know that even 1.5 mins before Shabbos, you're still focused soley on spreading your hate. I imagine that you didn't say Hodu, Posach Eliyohu, or even Korbanos because you were too busy smashing Chabad.

Oh the service you perform for the Jewish community!

[half nutcase]

well,um, halachicaly we are not aloud to "pray to the dead" we pray to hashem hoping that the tzaddikim will interceed for us. BIG diffrences. if we prayed to the dead, (rochmonos!!!) we'd all be guilty of worse than the entire goyish world (also seem to remember spacific commandment but can't remember where it is now)

[Dr. Who]

Scott, I am glad that you are an expert in Ben Ish Chai, but I am referring to Rashi's comment on Bamidbar 13:22, Caleb was "Nishtateach Al Kivrei Avot", he went there to pray that he would not be persuaded by his companions (the Spies) and be party to their plan. Perhaps we should all go and do the same at the Ohel (in truth any Tzaddik would do) and not become seduced by Scott's attempts to lead us astray.

If Scott would be studying Sotah as the custom is to do between Pesach and Shavuos, he would have studied the original discussion of the Gemorrah on daf 34B. Scott could have looked up the Mishnah Berurah and others on this subject. He chooses instead to only bash Chabad, shame on you Scott.

[Rabbi Zvi Konikov]

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:21:26 -0500
From: "Chabad of the Space Coast"
Subject: Igrot

[Micha:]
>2- Rav Shach was against the contemporary use of other known experiences
>of "practical qabbalah", citing the fascination with dibuq's for example.
>I believe goral haGra would also be excluded.

We have established the heter of using sifrei kodesh as a goral from the
Birkei Yosef, besides it being a minhag Yisroel up until recent times.
Stories from contemporary chassidim as well as litvishe yidden utilizing
the "Goral Hagra" such as Rav Yerucham Levovitz z"l, Mashgiach of Mir,
Rabbi Aryeh Levine z"l, Rav Tzvi Hirsch Levinson z"l (son in law of the
Chofetz Chaim) HaRav Yitzchok Tuviah Weiss (who today serves as Gavad
of the Eida HaChareidis) and many others are well known.

See also Sichas Shabbos Parshas Bamidbar 5749 from the Lubavitcher Rebbe
which refers clearly to the long-standing Jewish custom of clarifying
doubts regarding certain questions by opening a Chumash or other holy
text and acting on the directive one understands from that text.

(Although in the note, the Rebbe cautions the use of goral with sifrei
kodesh especially for inyonei chol, I doubt he meant the writing of
a letter to a Rebbe as he himself instructed in the minhagim for the
yahrtzeit of his father in law to place a letter in the pages of the
previous Rebbe's sefer Bosi L'gani)

>1- Many (most?) of those who consult the Igros call it "asking the rebbe"
> which would make it closer to ov veyid'oni in intent than a goral.

This objection then to "asking the Rebbe" should be directed at the
custom of placing a kvitel or letter on the grave, irrespective of
goral, in which case it is well known amongst chassidim that visiting
the grave of a tzadik is not only for the purpose of praying to Hashem
in a holy place but also to "ask of the tzadik haniftar" to be mivakesh
from Hakodosh Boruch Hu on their behalf - see Sotah 34b.

Zvi Konikov

Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:17:50 -0500
From: "Chabad of the Space Coast"
Subject: Re: Rav Schach on the Torah Codes, Mekubalim, Future Tellers, etc.

The practice of the Igros Kodesh should not be a stira to adhering to
the advice of one's Rav, as this was the Lubavitcher Rebbe's instruction
before his passing that when chassidim will not be able to get his advice
they should follow their rabbonim in all matters of Halacha.

As to the actual practice, the Birkei Yosef in Yoreh Dei'ah, siman 179,
se'if 8 says in the name of the Maharikash:
"It is permissible to open the Torah to see what pasuk appears, since
it is our life, and just as we see with Yoshiya, who did something
because he found a Sefer Torah rolled up to a particular pasuk and
so it is common practice. (end quote of the Maharikash)

(Birkei Yosef continues:)
"And it says in the Yalkut Mishlei, siman 219, if you want to take
an eitza from the Torah, take it. As we find that Dovid says,
"b'fikudecha asicha" (end of the Yalkut). Apparently, taking an
eitza from the Torah is possible and in this is included opening
the Torah to see what pasuk appears. And I found in a kuntres,
a manuscript from Rabbi Eliyahu Cohen z'l (the author of Shevet
Musar) who wrote as follows: I received from my teachers, that
when they wanted to do something, and were uncertain whether to do
it or not, they would take a chumash or nach and would open it,
and look at the top of the page to see what pasuk was there, and
based on the pasuk they would take action. And so it comes out, that
they consulted the Torah to know what to do in all their inyanim,
and this itself is alluded to in the statement of our sages z'l,
litol eitza min ha'Torah that it rules it permissible to do so,
and this is not at all in the category of 'utilizing the Torah'
(end of quote). And it's also possible that our sages z'l ruled
on this that despite the fact that it says in Sifri that one does
not ask through lots for it says, "tamim tihiyeh," however, in such
a way, it is permitted v'dok heitev.(end quote of Birkei Yosef)

Rabbi Zvi Konikov
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol14/v14n065.shtml#01
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol14/v14n063.shtml

[l]

What is so pathetic is that the Jews from New Jersey described are so ignorant that they buy the Lubavitcher propaganda lock stock and barrel. Lubavitch thrives on such ignorant Jews who buy into their idolatry. Jews who had a good Jewish education like mainstream Yeshiva students don't fall for their sect to such a degree because they know better. Lubavitch and ignorant Jews are a perfect match. Just like other cults, even Jews for Jesus, they feed on ignorant Jews. That is why it's important for Jews to get a good Jewish education, so they should be innoculated against fringe sects.

[Malach]

Rabbi Konikov please don't spread mistruths about the 'Birkey Yosef'.
He is referring to cases where a regular rabbi or sage would not know the answer and is using the holy book as a sign from heaven, similar to the story in the talmud where a young child was asked about the torah passage he studied in school, and that passage used as a sign from heaven, the Birkey yosef does not mean to imply that everybody should be opening up 'igross' to answer daily questions many of which are halachik!You lubabs are opening up a Pandoras box where ignorant jews will justify halachik rulings based on this cultish mumbo jumbo.
(btw are you Ilan Ramons z'l rabbi?)
Also, I was reading articles and interviews about a Rabbi Konikov in the 'Bais Moshiach' I'm surprised that you would be willing to go along with that foolish and heretical magazine.The still refer to the Rebbe z'l as 'alive' 11 years after the fact!)

[Shmarya]

"Scott, I am glad that you are an expert in Ben Ish Chai, but I am referring to Rashi's comment on Bamidbar 13:22, Caleb was "Nishtateach Al Kivrei Avot", he went there to pray…"

He did *NOT* pray to the avot or ask the avot for advice or help. He prayed *TO GOD.*

Chabad askes the ***DEAD REBBE*** for blessings, advice and help.

Big difference.

Not only do they 'ask' and 'pray' to their Rebbe, they also go to his tomb(and these are the so called 'normal' ones, the messianics claim he is alive and well in 770!)to 'thank' him!!!
This craziness was related on the so called 'normal' Chabad newsite Shmais, where Ronald Pearlman went to 'thank' the Rebbe with Rabbi Shemtov for being awarded a large judgement against a brokerage.
Did anybody say Lubavitch was the closest religion to Judaism??It ain't that close anymore.

[MP]

Scott, instead of worrying about Lubavitchers praying to the Rebbe, you better make haste to the Rebbe’s gravesite and beg his forgiveness in the presence of a minyan for all the evil things you have written. That IS mandated by the Halocho you claim to honor. You should also ask G-d’s forgiveness, but that you can do in the comfort of your own home. After having read your writings, the only thing I can imagine is that there is something fishy with your lineage. Some fateful day a Lubavitcher asked you on the street corner: "Sir, are you Jewish by any chance?". Did you tell that man the truth?

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
Why are you all badmouthing Shmarya? Don't you know the saying of our holy sages "Shmarya vePenina mitkavenim le'tovah." (actualy it said Sotan in the original but according to Chassidus there is realy not much of a differnce since it would follow from the Tanya that someone like him would be esentially a Sheid Yehudi- Jewish Demon (also the Breslaver Rebbe was known for pointing them out)don't you all who learned history of Chabad know that Chabad grew to it's current size in part due to G-d causing people like the author of this site to go and attack the Rebbes and Chassidim with false and deceptive alegations giving much free publicity to it and eventually bringing many more followers for Chabad when these alegations are proven false one by one. It's besides the point that most if not all of his complaints against Chabad and the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a have been rationaly answered in comments to this and other blogs where he posts and he is still continueing 1)He has become a litle bit kinder and is trying to be more rational it seems to me. 2) Some of the issues he adressed in avery rude and public manner have probably been questions in the back of the mind of various people visiting this site from before but since they were not really angry at the Rebbe and Chabadjust trying to find out the truth some of the comments on his posts helped them (if not him) to do it. It says that Haman's kids became Torah sages in the merit of the fact that his behaviour caused Jews to do teshuvah better than all the warnings of the prophets. It's obvious that that wasn't the Haman's intent anymore than it's the intent of Shmarya's intention to glorify the Rebbe King Moshiach and Chabad yet because of him literaly thousands of people know that there is a video http://torah.5u.com/Rebbe-King-Moshiach-Shlita-Uncensored-Video-at-Moshiach.tv.html of the Rebbe encouraging the belief in himself as Moshiach encoraging the proclamation of "Yechi" thus they can and do ask various Chabadniks (like myself for example) to explain these beliefs and many (many more than Shmarya thinks) start believing and join us and some at least start respecting these beliefs seeing there are Torah sources for them and they come from the Rebbe a holy tzadik and not simply a bunch of mishugoim.
So in the merit of this and other good that comes out of Shmarya's sites may G-d bless him with children and grandchildren and greatgrandchildren who will be true Chassidim of the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a in particular for spending his time and effort giving me great zchus of literaly thousands of extra visitors/readers/viewers (according to my stats) coming from his sites. Since one of the answers I have recieved from the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a thru Igrot Koidesh says in part that "in the merit of your holy ancestors you'll succeed" see http://www.Torah.5u.com/aboutme.html I pray that even if Shmarya has no merit of his own (since one who rebels against the king Moshiach forefeits everything)may it be that he should be elevated and transormed in the merit of the Chernobyller Rebbe (who "made" 10s of thousands Chassidim for Baal Shem Tov and the Maggid) for "helping" me to spread the teachings of the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a . And may Shmarya's shtus de'klipah shall turn over to shtus de'kdusha and he assume his rightfull place on the "meshugoim bima" in 770 ( http://www.770live.com ) as it's obvious he will clearly fit in there.:-)
Brocha VeHatzlocha!
Ariel Sokolovsky
http://www.torah.5u.com/chabad-videos.html Chabad Videos page
http://www.ChabadTravel.com Chabad Lubavitch Travel Service blog
http://www.GeulaInvestmentTrust.com Geula Investment Trust .com blog
http://www.DonkeyMoshiach.Blogspot.com (a site dedicated to Shmarya's uncle or at least someone who deserves such a nephew:-)
http://www.MoshiachTV.Blogspot.com Moshiach TV blog

Long Live our Master our Teacher and our Rebbe King Moshiach Forever and Ever!

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"Scott, instead of worrying about Lubavitchers praying to the Rebbe, you better make haste to the Rebbe’s gravesite and beg his forgiveness in the presence of a minyan for all the evil things you have written."

He won't, and if I thought he ever went completely insane and tried to, I would meet him there and slap him silly. But really, thanks for sharing. Have a nice avoda zara day.

[MP]

Neo-Con, if you say something insulting about a dead Jew (any dead Jew), JEWISH LAW mandates that you do exactly as I described, you ignorant moron.

Neo-con, if you can read, look this up:
שו"ע תרו סע' ב

[Ariel needs help]

Ariel, thanks for proving an earlier posting that- 'Chabad used to be the closest religion to Judaism but it ain't that close anymore'
You are an idol worshipper, please warn jews about your views so that you are not included in a ten man quorom.You pray to the Rebbe not to the Creator.

[Meshulam]

Well put, Ariel!

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
"Ariel, thanks for proving an earlier posting that-
'Chabad used to be the closest religion to Judaism but it ain't that close anymore'

"Oh..., thanks for clarifying that poor me thought that closest religion to Judaism was Shmaryaism
"
You are an idol worshipper, please warn jews about your views so that you are not included in a ten man quorom.You pray to the Rebbe not to the Creator.

Posted by: Ariel needs help | June 5, 2005 11:54 PM
"
Oh so you from Berger's Anti-Chabad inquisition squad?
Did your exalted teacher grant ruach hakoidesh upon you to know to whom I or anyone prays?
You create Judaism in your own image based on silly stereotypes and misconceptions and exclude those who don't share them from membership. Ashreinu MaToiv helkeinu umanoim goraleinu umayafa yerushseinu shehevdilanu minhatoim kamocha-How happy we are and how good is our lot that haKodosh Boruch Hu separated us from those who are mistaken like yourself.

Ha'aretz, Thursday, January 15, 1998

The Prophet of God

No one can 'evade the yoke of the belief in the Lubavitcher
Rebbe's Messiahship', writes Gedalyahu Axelrod

By Gedalyahu Axelrod

I read the article by David Berger - "On false Messianism,
idolatry and Lubavitch," Ha'aretz, Jan.11) in which I was
attacked together with other rabbis of cities and heads of
rabbinical courts in Israel and abroad, for signing a formal
rabbinical ruling stating that the Lubavitcher Rebbe has the
status of a prophet, and that he is the Messiah, and that every
Jew must accept the sovereignty of his Messiahship, by dint of
the Jewish law which obligates all Jews to obey a prophet. The
writer of the article went so far as to proclaim that "this
declaration alone is sufficient to exclude its promulgators from
Orthodox Judaism."In his article, Berger makes an hysterical
attack on the entire Lubavitch movement. First, I would like to
make one thing absolutely clear to David Berger and to everyone
else. There is no halachic dispensation that will enable anyone
to evade accepting the yoke of the belief in the Rebbe's
Messiahship, because of Maimonides' ruling that obligates all
Jews to do so. That may be the reason why he is so angry,
because - as far as I can see - he has no inclination to do so,
and he is using this furious outburst to try to escape his
obligations.

Maimonides, in his Hilchot Yesodei Hatorah [Laws of the
Foundations of the Torah], Chapter 10, determines the criteria
for a great and wise prophet: that he "has broad knowledge," "is
in full control of himself," "predicts the future," and most
important, that he declares that the Lord sent him to be a
prophet. The Lubavitcher Rebbe, in session with thousands of his
followers, dropped a spiritual and historic bombshell by
declaring himself the prophet of the generation.

We Jews, throughout all generations, have been willing to enter
blazing furnaces for our faith. We will remain strong in this
mission as well. We will accept the prophet of God, the
sovereignty of the Rebbe, Messiah the King, because we are thus
obliged by virtue of our Judaism. Rabbi Ahron Soloveichik, one
of the greatest rabbis in the United States, published an open
letter in the American press on June 24, 1996, in which he
attacked those who persecute Chabad, such as the likes of
Berger, and determined that belief in the Rebbe as King Messiah,
even today after his passing from our vision, does not conflict
with the views of Judaism.

As for the ability of the Rebbe to see into the future, let me
mention just two prophecies. One was during the Gulf War, when
the Rebbe said that it would be unnecessary to wear gas masks
because no chemical weapons would be used; and the second, when
he told Benjamin Netanyahu, during Netanyahu's visit with him
before his election to the Knesset, that in the future he would
have to contend with 119 people. The only confrontation of this
type would be in elections for prime minister, when each member
of Knesset pulls in a different direction.

I would like to address the claim of idolatry - Heaven forbid -
raised in the article. I can only marvel at the way people are
willing to destroy a movement known all over the world for its
staunch devotion to the observance of commandments and to
bringing Jews closer to their Judaism. And those who are even
more familiar with Lubavitch, know just how pure and sublime it
is. True, there have been some anomalous comments which should
not have been made, but these exceptions are being taken care of
by Chabad rabbis everywhere by means of education and guidance,
so that those who made them do not deviate from the path of
halacha. I believe that David Berger must beg the forgiveness of
the tens of thousands of followers of Lubavitch who proudly
carry high the torch of Judaism, and who are not deterred by
those who would destroy it from the day of its foundation.

(Rabbi Axelrod is the head of a rabbinical court in Haifa.)

(c) copyright 1997 Ha'aretz. All Rights Reserved

Brocha veHatzlocha!
Ariel Sokolovsky
http://www.torah.5u.com/aboutme.html
http://www.torah.5u.com/chabad-videos.html Chabad Videos page
http://www.ChabadTravel.com Chabad Lubavitch Travel Service blog
http://www.GeulaInvestmentTrust.com Geula Investment Trust .com blog
http://www.MoshiachTV.Blogspot.com Moshiach TV blog
http://www.DonkeyMoshiach.Blogspot.com Blog of Nossi of the Dor haShmini Moshiach Yudel
Long Live our Master our Teacher and our Rebbe King Moshiach Forever and Ever!

[Lubavitcher]

as another prophecy ther rebbe MH"M Shlita said is to colonel goldstien (chaplain in US army) that when he (goldstein) went to the middle east during the gulf war he went to the rebbe for advice.
toward the end he asked if he should brng a megilah. the rebbe said that he wouldnt need opne as the war would be over before purim (and the war endedjust befor or at the beggining of purim).

also 2 days after purim the Rebbe MHM Shlita gave his brocho's top the us troops fighting in iraq. didnt the rebbe know the war was over aready??? he was very well informed and knew what was happening in the world.
nowadays we can understanfd that statement because 2 days after purim in 2003 the war in iraq started. i have a feeling none else (except maybe the 36 hidden tzaddikim) could have known that.

[Ariel needs help]

Ariel, thanks for adding the article from Ha'aretz about the 'quack rabbi' Axelrod.As can plainly be seen from his letter to Ha'aretz, he is a silly ,naive cult member and idol worshipper dressed in 'sheep clothing' while this imbecile may mean well just as I believe Ariel is a well meaning idiot savant, nevertheless, both of you are dangerous and mindless Rebbe worshippers.
Actually Ariel is not to be blamed he is a 'tinok shenishba' growing up in Russia and fed this Lubavitch nonsense. Axelrod on the other hand is someone who studied in real, non Lubab yeshivas such as Ponovitch.

Trivia question:If the Rebbe was such a prophet how come did he not see what a laughing stock Lubavitch would turn into after his passing?
'Chabad used to be the closest religion to Judaism but it ain't that close anymore!!'

[ariel needs help]

I like this statement:'Chabad used to be the closest religion to Judaism but it ain't that close anymore!!'

[Avodas Avoda]

You give yourself away: 'Chabad used to be the closest religion to Judaism but it ain't that close anymore!!'

To you, Yechi is an excuse to make fun of an organization you've always hated. Hateful misnaged, your words hardly contain meaning. No matter the logic or refinement of the argument, so long as it comes from a Lubavitcher you will attack the messenger (and ignore the message). If that is your attitude, to stick your head in the ground like a moron and arrogantly assert that Lubavitchers are krum because "I said so," then you will be seen as the moron you chose to be. So much for your "real, non Lubab yeshiva" education in Tauro, YU or some such place.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"Neo-Con, if you say something insulting about a dead Jew (any dead Jew), JEWISH LAW mandates that you do exactly as I described, you ignorant moron."

As opposed to the living, as in your post? Aside from that note, how about we start with mitsva #64 - Not to attempt to contact the dead (Deut. 18:11)?

[Harboyne]

well said neo conservaguy
what a bunch of sorcerers !

[rebeljew]

There can be no doubt that Chabad supports communicating with dead Rebbes. The favored method on the street is to randomly enter the Rebbe's letters and imagine that this answer is relevant to you. They have invented this interesting method, source unknown.

Ariel Sokolovsky himself has proven how effective this method is. See his site www.bostonchabad.com, entry under Oct. 19, 2004, and follow the ensuing discussion, http://rebeljew.blogspot.com/2005/04/igros-part-ii-test.html

[rebeljew]

Can anyone support the contention that Chabadniks now or in the past "pray to the dead" or "pray to the Rebbe"? It seems to be hyperbole, but that implies a serious charge. It should be amended appropriately if that is the case.

[Avodas Avoda]

According to Shmarya, writing letters to the Rebbe and putting them in the Ohel is the same as praying to the Rebbe. In that case, I'd better stop writing into FailedMessiah.com... I wouldn't want Shmarya to think that I'm praying to him.

(a side point, would there be any nafka mina if a Jew, c''v, prayed to Shmarya's site, thereby making it assur l'hano? Since nobody gets hano from the site, I say not; but I digress...)

Shmarya seems to be alone in condemning this practice. The greatest anti-Chabad haters in the world have nothing nice to say about us and nonetheless ignore this so-called heresy.

[please stop lying]

Just two months after the Previous Rebbe's passing, the Rebbe wrote the following to someone: "You worry that now one cannot ask the Rebbe when he is in doubt how he should conduct himself. If you stand strong in your connection to him...and send your questions to the Rebbe's ohel [gravesite], the Rebbe will find a way to answer."

Some people fax letters to the ohel (718-723-4444), some come from near or far to go personally. Others ask one of the Rebbe's secretaries to read the letter at the ohel.

Another way people "live with the Rebbe" is by placing a letter to the Rebbe in any of the nearly 100 volumes of the Rebbe's Torah teachings or correspondence. This is, in fact, what chasidim of previous generations did when they were unable to correspond with their Rebbe in the conventional way.

There's a modern twist, though. Today we have 24 volumes of Igros Kodesh--letters written by the Rebbe to private individuals over the past 50 years. As they are letters to private individuals--and the Rebbe "custom makes" the advice to fit the soul--there are different answers to similar questions. For instance, to one person who asks the Rebbe if he should move, the Rebbe answers "yes." To another person the Rebbe's answer is "no."

After writing to the Rebbe, one opens the book "at random" and the advice in that letter is one's answer. And we haven't heard of a case yet when one sincerely asks the Rebbe advice in this manner that there hasn't been an answer.

From http://torah4blind.org/lwm-5758/135.htm#Living%20with%20The%20Rebbe%20Today
(Living With Moshiach)

"How are these answers, blessings, and guidance possible? Again, let's turn to the Rebbe directly for an explanation: "In answer to your question, when people came to the Rebbe for a blessing they did so not because of the superiority of his physical body, but because of the superiority of his soul. Death only pertains to the physical body, for the soul is eternal, especially the soul of a tzaddik to whom purgatory and punishment have no relevance. The passing of a tzaddik is merely a departure, an ascent to a higher plane, and therefore cannot be termed 'death,' as is explained in the Zohar."

Go ahead. Twist and turn this so you can tell me it doesn't mean what it says. I'm giggling already. Avodas, I can hardly wait.

[please stop lying]

Sorry about the formatting problem- the entire previous post, except for my comments at the end, was from the URL given halfway down. The cited website is published by Lubavitch Shluchim Conferences On The Moshiach Campaign, Committee For The Blind. I guess you can't even use being blind as an excuse for not seeing what Shmarya's talking about.

[Avodas Avoda]

All of it is true. 100%. We communicate with the Rebbe. I couldn't put it any better than your article already does. The Rebbe is, after all, still our Rebbe.

What are you trying to prove? That we pray to the Rebbe, c''v? If so, then your article doesn't exactly hit the mark. Just as in the past, we ask the Rebbe for advice. Some do so directly with the Igros (with varying degrees of success), and some carry one a seemingly one-sided conversation with the Rebbe by the Ohel (though, of course, the conversation isn't truly one-sided, as was suggested above). And, at least the latter was suggested directly by the Rebbe himself (also, as your article states). The former practice has been approved by many of the brightest Torah scholars of our time, and is based on the Rebbe's instructions.

If you think we're off the derech, then you'll have to take that up with the Rebbe himself. We're following his directives.

I'll say again that outside of this website, our writing letters to the Rebbe (much the same way many other people write letters to Tzaddikim that are nistalek, like R' Nachman, R' Elimelech, the Besht, etc.) is not viewed as controversial. Everything else we do is considered controversial by the haters of Chabad; but this practice has gotten little press by our detractors... except for Shmarya here and his band of ultra-misnagdim... a hateful handful of goons with a lot of time on their hands, and (apparently) very few seforim...

[Shmarya]

No other hasidim or Orthodox Jews communicate with dead tzaddikim (except for, *perhaps* Breslover ba'alei teshuva). Why?

[Malach]

Avodas avoda (zora )You really prove my point:'Chabad used to be the closest religion to Judaism but it ain't that close anymore!!'
Stop trying to hide all the craziness like contacting the rebbe via igross 'or the rebbe, will find a way' or similar nonsense, behind you fig leaf.Let's call a spade a spade!:'Chabad used to be the closest religion to Judaism but it ain't that close anymore!!'

[rebeljew]

Please stop lying (user of this handle):
Just two months after the Previous Rebbe's passing, the Rebbe wrote the following to someone: "You worry that now one cannot ask the Rebbe when he is in doubt how he should conduct himself. If you stand strong in your connection to him...and send your questions to the Rebbe's ohel [gravesite], the Rebbe will find a way to answer."

You skirted my question. This implies "ipcha mistabra", that they had another method in mind. OK, the concept of goral. OK, the concept of davening "at" not "to" a gravesite. OK, the concept of picking a card from a deck and proceeding based on the card, (although this approaches Nichush). Un azoi veiter. THIS METHOD OF RANDOMLY INTERPRETING IGROS, what is its SOURCE, with the CR, the FR or any Rebbe in the system?!!!! Why was it not in wide use before today? If we had the power to contact tzadikim and get credible answers, why don't we solve some of the great halachic questions, like how to blow t'ru'a, the correct 33 days to mourn in the Omer, the proper location of the Beis Hamikdash, the location of the klei Beis Hamikdash, or any other halacha based on sofek? Let's just ask the tzadikim and they will find a way to answer! Didn't the Talmudic Rebbes know this powerful principle?

What of the strong evidence brought by Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky sh'yichye here http://rebeljew.blogspot.com/2005/04/igros-part-ii-test.html on the efficacy of this method?

[rebeljew]

Avodas Avoda

I appreciate your frustration with the anti-Chabad screed. But counter-screed accomplishes nothing. Nutty shitas are nothing new to sectarian Judaism, certainly not in our age of the "mystical approach". Can you not acknowledge that some of the "unconventional" Chabad credos of today are difficult to source?

What if some other group promoted their rebbe as Moshiach, even if he were a prolific, energetic, outreach oriented, fully ehrlich tazdik l'kuli alma? How would you view them? What if they had unconventional practic es and beliefs? Would you say that their rebbe is a mentch, but what's with the Moshiach shtick? Would you endorse peculiar practices that emanated from them, without question (since their rebbe is a tzadik? In short, if the issue were not personal to you, and you were viewing them from outside, would you be persuaded by the type of stretched "proof" and broad analogies that Chabad brings?

[Harboyne]

"What if some other group promoted their rebbe as Moshiach, even if he were a prolific, energetic, outreach oriented, fully ehrlich tazdik l'kuli alma?"

you are so right in your question ! it's so true .
add to it the videos with the rebbe orchestrating yechi !
he knew all along what was going on . according to the meschichistens he alluded himself (some would say directed them ) into believing in him , and doing a little mitzvalach to hasten his revelation !
unfortunately , i know their reply ' they will say nothing wrong with believing , see r' akivo and bar kochvo -who was not a tzaddik - kal vachomer with their tzaddik !

[Avodas Avoda]

RebelJew-

I appreciate your questions. The answer is this: Seemingly weird or mystical practices that are given over by Tzaddkim are beyond my ability or desire to reproach. The Lelover Rebbe for many years gave his deceased father an Aliyah every Shabbos. He listened, said "Baruch H' hamvorach etc." and said "Omen," and the kehilla responded with him. The Amshinover Rebbe is known to daven outside of zmanim. One straing of the Breslov Chassidim believe that they received a secret letter from Rebbe Nachman instructing them to say Na Nach Nachma Nachman M'Uman.

These practices are strange, and they don't have a souce in halacha. However, they are rarely criticized (except for Na Nach... many Breslovers are critical of Na Nach... but no non-Breslovers) because these practices originated from Tzaddikim.

Similarly, our insistence that the Rebbe still is capable of communicating with his Chassidim (which is related to the whole question of spiritual death vs. physical death as seen above) is rooted in the Rebbe's insistence that Chassidim of the previous Rebbe could communicate with him after his histalkus. The mode of communication differs from Chassid to Chassid. But the concept of communication is not new.

Do these ideas have a mokor in halacha seforim? Honestly, I don't know. I know that "Ase lecho rov" is an important inyan in Yiddishkeit; and I know that my "rov" instructed me to communicate with him by writing letters and placing them in the Ohel. (How or if the Rebbe chooses to 'write back' is his business. I haven't had success withthe Irgors... like I said earlier this is a very personal thing and it differs between individuals).

[rebeljew]

A-A

Na Nach does draw fire on occasion. However, Chabad is current, they are "in your face", and they carry with their odd theology a hubris unmatched in recent times. Hence, they are a popular target. No one has to deal with a Breslover singing yechi. If they did, Na Nach would be big time flamebait. Chabad also davens outside of zmanim on a regular basis. I remember walking into 770 at 4 PM and seeing people in tallis and tefillin.

As far as the Chabad Rebbe being able to communicate, I can only reiterate that you read my exchange with Sokolovsky linked above. He states on 10/19/04 with surety that John Kerry will win the election, based on a communication of whatever sort with the CR, and that he advises us to bet money on the outcome. He even uses the P word. Try asking several specific questions with clear, falsifiable answers, using any means. I am sure that, the more questions you ask, the more you will get results along the lines of chance. Then, you may be able to come up with excuses why the answers are not REALLY false, but you will never get a reliable source of true information. Thus, this is a very poor way to make decisions. As I say above, even if great tzadikim could do this, we would not have halachas based on sofek. We would have had them ask the sages of prior generations. Of course, igros is very personal. But reality is everyone's reality.

[Avodas Avoda]

RebelJew-

I can only speak for myself here. R' Sokolovsky and I disagree as to the extent of the Igros' capabilities. I know people who seem to get answers every time they write; and I know people that claim to never have had success with the Igros. I personally have never heard of using the Igros to predict elections or such things. In general, the extent of their applicability is in personal decisions relating to Avodas H'.

But, R' Sokolovsky can probably answer your accusations himself.

[rebeljew]

He did the dance at that link. This igros is simply a chance mechanism. Anyone who doesn't believe that, I have a diamond mine in Australia to sell him.

[Avodas Avoda]

Rebel, if that's what you believe, all power to you. I don't have any desire to disabuse you of that belief. But there are those who believe otherwise, and that's ok (unless you're Shmarya... for Shmarya, disagreeing is a federal offense).

[rebeljew]

Anyone is free to pull a belief out of the air. This matter was put to the test, and it failed about as clearly as anything could fail.

[Avodas Avoda]

Right, well, you may be qualified to judge that. I know I'm not. Probably the best judge of such a thing is R' Sokolovsky himself. I can only tell you that I've known people for whom the Igros has been very helpful. I know that I personally have not had much success with the Igros, and prefer to go to the Ohel, say the Maane Lashon, and conduct myself the way countless Chassidim and countless Jews have conducted themselves at many Kivrei Tzaddikim.

[Paul Freedman]

A-A

As a non-Orthodox Jew I remain completely in the dark as to how Shmyra is affiliated which maybe shouldn't be important, but ...

Sometimes I think he's Modern Orthodox, then I think, no, he was mainstream Agudas Orthodox but he's critical of certain aspects ... do you have an opinion on this?

Also, I would appreciate if you could provide a glimpse into why up to now, although a Tzaddik had qualities that were felt to transcend death, nevertheless, each generation sought a physically present Rebbe to succeed the previous one. I know why the Breslover Chassidim did not have a Rebbe after Nachman and, for example, I think I understand how Ariel would answer this question. But is a non-Messianic view of the Rebbe and/or acceptance of a new Rebbe no longer possible for Lubavitch?

[An oheiv Yisrael]

Hi there -

I am a simple yid - but I just cannot understand how, while the Ramban, Arizal, Gr"a and Ramchal never said about themselves that they were Moshiach, why we have to believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe (Zecher Tzaddik Vekadosh Livrocho) has to be The Moshiach Hashem.
Any examples of the Late Rebbe's "Ruach Hakodesh", I am certain is true - part of the Mesorah of Klal Yisrael is that it's Manhigim and Gedolim have siata dishmaya. No one is arguing the Rebbe's position as a Godol - but why the necessity to turn a tremendous movement, who was and still is mekarev thousands of people, into a 'mashichist' one.

I am very interested in Paul's question of whether it is still possible to allow for unity amongst Klal Yisrael, and re-accept Lubavitch as a non-moshichist, and powerful kiruv and chinuch organisation - with a visible Rebbe at its Helm.

Whatever the belief, moshiach or not, why is it necessary to discuss. Some think he was/is the Moshiach, some don't; LeMai Nafka Mina -

Hashem should bless everyone with Kol Tuv

[Paul Freedman]

An ohev Yisroel:

Thank you for your support--Ariel, for example, surely believes that another Rebbe would be, well, "counterproductive", but hopefully a "non-Messianist" reader will post an opinion.

[me]

The seforim say that we may ask the Tzaddikim who have left the world to pray for us because the gemara says "Tzadikim b'misasam kruim chayim", so it is not considered "doresh el hameisim". I think it's brought in "Taamei Minhagim" on Lag Bomer.

I am not a Lubavitcher Hassid, I am merely defending traditional Yiddishkeit

[Shmarya]

I believe you are mistaken. All major halakhic works condemn the practice, including the Ben Ish Hai, a major sefardic posek and mekkubal.

The Shulkhan Aruch is quite clear – do not address the dead, tzaddikim or not.

What Chabad does is far more than asking a dead tzaddik to 'pray' (i.e., ask God) for something. They ask the dead Rebbe for HIS blessings and HIS advice. Clearly assur.

[Eliezer Dov bear Deutsch]

Do you guys realy think a websight bashing the Lubavitcher Rebbe and his chassidim is helping our people where do you get such cutzpah why do you do this you know this only causes us to fight the goal is to unite and bring mashioch to reveal himself
whoever He may be you should think about this deeply and ask yourself is this little feud worth it

[Eytan]

Asking in Igrot Ha Kodesh is light years away from "Praying to the dead". Igrot Ha Kodesh (The holy letters) are a tool of achieving information via quantum leeway !!!
The theory of probability is a human compromise. It is the best model of reality we can get when we can't say anything more about prediction of states of any physical system. We do believe, however, that the screen of probability can be lifted by the rights of Tzadikim (righteous ones), let alone a General Soul which is a connecion pipe (Maase Merkava = Chariot) to what is beyond that screen.
By writing in Igrot HaKodesh, one does not
write to the Rebbe, rather, one uses a refined tool to reach beyond probability.
Only the ones that are afraid and frighten others should not use Igrot HaKodesh !!! From my experience once you agree to accept Igrot HaKodesh it always works and manifests total statistical anomaly !!!
It's up to you guys. Either you are interested in what G-d really wants or you are interested in what goes along well with the limited human rationality. Hiding behind wrong Halachaic interpretations only scorns Halacha. You can open your letter with "To G-d via the Rebbe's Igrot HaKodesh".
Giving up this magnificent tool is simply dark ages bigotry !!!

[Judith]

Whatever your views are on praying to the Rebbe, or praying to Hashem that thru the good deeds of the Rebbe something may be answered you has absolutely nothing to do with all the GOOD, yeah, GOOD, that Chabad has done throughout the U.S. and around the world, and before people go around sayingall these horrible things about Chabad, and comparing them to J4J, I think they should remember that. A lot of people are Baal Shuva because of the work of Chabad. Whatever little view they might have, or issues, whatever, in the end, they're doing alot more, and sacrificing a lot more, than most Jewish groups in Judaism today.

And perhaps if these poor innocent Jews were taught by anyone OTHER than Chabad, they wouldn't "fall prey".

[Shmarya]

You could say everything you're saying now about Chabad about the Early Church in Israel.

In Judaism, doing good does not excuse worshiping an idol (or a dead Rebbe).

The entire point of Judaism as we have it is to reject all idols, human or stone, plant, animal, star or planet.

[ATTALI VALERIE]

je voudrais savoir comment on peut avoir le shalom bait

[Kitty]

Do not pray to a dead Rebbi. Pray to HaShem only. And the Rabbi Konikov from Florida, did not make his case clear at all. I wonder how much he knows about what he writes about? Chabad is good at growing a business for wayward Jews. But how deep do they get in other areas?