Gil Student And The Art of Censorship

Gil Student has a post on Halav Yisrael (so-called Jewish milk).

But, as is the norm for Rabbi Student, comments that raise questions that he cannot answer or that pointedly challenge his mentors are deleted. Rather than answer the challenge – or admit that he cannot – Rabbi Student resorts to censorship to retain his hegemony.

What follows after the jump are three comments from that thread and my (now-deleted) response, Rabbi Student's 'reason' for the censorship and my response to that.

Gil:

Another point in favor of the heter: It is evident from the sugya in Avoda Zara that the supervision by Jews need not be direct observation. For example, if Jews are present where the milk is being drawn, even if the Jewish mashgichim are sitting down in such a manner that they cannot see the milking process directly because their view is obstructed, this nevertheless qualifies as proper hashgacha because the possibility of the Jew standing up to see what is happening is sufficient to prevent the gentiles from mixing non-Jewish milk. The FDA supervision of large dairies certainly accomplishes this task very powerfully. And also, according to this reasoning, all milk in the US drawn in dairies under FDA inspection is in fact Halav Yisroel even though no Jew is directly present for the hashgacha.
           Nachum Klafter | 05.16.05 - 11:14 am | #

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Nachum, You are following R. Moshe Feinstein's approach, which I don't really understand.
           Gil | Homepage | 05.16.05 - 11:16 am | #

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Nonsense about there being less preservatives in CY. Milk is preserved by pasteurizing, and all milk is pasteurized the same way. BTW, for all you CY drinkers, see if it contains vitamin d3. Almost certainly derived from treif.( Don`t worry, it`s batel b`shishim)
Rav Moshe`s tschuva is based on a Gemara that talks about a Jew being around at the time of milking, but a cow walks in the way and can`t actually see it. Kosher. Rav Moshe said that the Government is a surrogate for a Jew and therefore it is CY, and you can trust the fear of Government etc.
The OU do not have dairy equipment designation anymore and state all such products as dairy.
That brings a question for all of you that are machmir on CY, but will eat one of those products that is OUD but has no dairy ingredients, and others that will eat it after meat. Seems that you are trusting the FDA labelling laws, doesn`t eat?
           mb | 05.16.05 - 11:27 am | #

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Nachum Klafter is correct.

Today, Halav Yisrael is an issue of societal conformity and, of course, keeping more $$$ in the haredi  'food-chain' as opposed to out of it.

By the way, there are Rishonim – Moshe HaDarshan comes quickly to mind – that permitted Gevinat Akum if the normative method of making cheese was with non-animal rennent. This is the case in America where almost all commonly available commercial cheese is made with synthetic rennent. That is why the common practice among non-Haredi pre-WW2 Orthodox American Jews was to eat non-Jewish commercial cheese.

The original gezera against non-Jewish cheese can be found in Talmud Yerushalmi Shabbat 1:4. You'll note that the gezera was passed only after Beit Shammai used thuggery and force to obtain the majority. You'll also note that the Yerushalmi calls that day the "blackest" ever to befall the Jewish people (except for Tisha B'Av).

If there was not so much money being made from 'Jewish' cheese, you'd all be eating Kraft today at a price that is less than half of the 'Jewish' cheese.

Take all that money and put it into Jewish education. It would make quite a difference.
Shmarya

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Shmarya: Because you are disparaging Beis Shammai.
           Gil | Homepage | 05.16.05 - 12:49 pm | #

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No, Gil. I'm *QUOTING* the Yerushalmi, just as I wrote.

Therefore, if Beit Shammai was "disparaged," the Yerushalmi did it.

For those interested in Gil's censorship, check out my blog. I'll have a post on it in a few minutes.

http://www.FailedMessiah.com/
           Shmarya | Homepage | 05.16.05 - 1:22 pm | #

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I suppose Rabbi Student learned this type of debate from his mentors, Rabbis Hershal Schachter and Mordechai Willig.

While it is difficult to imagine Rabbi JB Soleveitchik behaving in such a childish manner, such behavior is perfectly in character for Rabbis Schachter and Willig – and their students.

Sad.

Comments

[Anonymous ben Kalonymous]

Waah! Waah!

You're such a whiner, Scott.

[Avodas Avoda]

The Yerushalmi doesn't reject the halocho just because it was passed by Beis Shammai. The Yerushalmi merely laments its passing. The halocho stands regardless. (Now it remains to understand the halocho, which is another topic altogether). However, it is inappropriate to say that "since this is ONLY in accordance with Beis Shammai..."

Also, your above comments are incorrect. R' Moshe said that even though FDA supervision doesn't make milk CY, it nonetheless provides the requisite edus to insure that the milk is kosher.

The milk remains cholov stam. However, R' Moshe permits drinking it.

To say that R' Moshe called any milk produced in America CY is incorrect in the extreme.

As well, if you read the Teshuva, you'd realize that it is more complicated and much more interesting then what you presented.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Do you like anyone?

[Shmarya]

1. Gil regularly censors comments and has done so repeatedly to me, not because of foul language but because he cannot answer the challenge. I think this is the forst time I have posted here about this. Hardly a crybaby.

2. The comments you question are not mine and are clearly marked as such. As for your spin on Rav Moshe, you are clearly confused. Dr. Klafter actually UNDERSTANDS the teshuva. You do not. Dr. Klafter's view is NORMATIVE in Orthodoxy. In fact, Rav Yissoscher Frand has a tape that says so.

3. Do I like anyone? Certainly not you.

[Avodas Avoda]

I thought you had posted that R' Moshe said that American milk is Cholov Yisroel. I was wrong, but you defended the position nonetheless. I don't know Nachum Klafter from a hole in the wall. While his posts seem intelligent and informed, that does not make them right. I too have learned these Tshuvos extensively. I never said that R' Moshe assered Cholov Stam, or even that relying on his heter was "bediavad."

I merely said that R' Moshe never called American milk Cholov Yisroel. The difference between that and what R' Moshe actually said might be subtle, but it is nonetheless significant. R' Moshe said that the FDA's "Edus" was sufficient to render the milk entirely acceptable for consumption (which is a bigger deal than simply being kosher... Cholov Akum mamosh may well be kosher, its still assur to drink... R' Moshe said that the FDAs watch made the milk acceptable to drink). Nonetheless, he did differentiate between that and what a "Baal Nefesh" does which is to drink Cholov Yisroel.

Shmarya- you have a lot of anger and hot air; but insulting people and vaguely referring to R' Frand tapes does not constitute an argument.

[Shmarya]

Again, Rav Moshe removed the halakhic reason for halav yisrael.

He held that government supervision = eidut = kosher w/o fear. He called that milk halav companies to distinguish it from old-style halav yisrael. Rav Frand – and many poskim through the years – hold that Rav Moshe removed the very halakhic need for old-style halav yisrael and, as Nachum Klafter noted, 'elevated' halav stam to halav yisrael as a result.

That you fail to grasp this very basic principle is beyond me.

Think: Halav akum in a country w/o US-style supervision has a din lechatchila of treife, even though it may be perfectly kosher and the rov of all milk produced certainly is kosher. Halav akum in America does not have the din of treife.

Since the *PURPOSE* of halav yisrael is to prevent the mixing of treife milk (i.e., camel's milk) with kosher milk, and since one can *NOT* extend the prohibition, no matter how many psudeo-Kabbalistic reasons the Frierdiker Rebbe and his son-in-law made up out of whole cloth, if one can assertain with certainty that no treife milk has been mixed in, the milk is kosher and halav yisrael because all halav yisrael means *halakhicly* is milk that has been ascertained to unmixed and from a kosher animal.

Got it?

[Avodas Avoda]

And what I'm trying to say is that R' Moshe removed the halachic necessity for the milk to be cholov Yisroel. He didn't say that FDA milk is cholov Yisroel. He said that it doesn't matter that the milk davka isn't chalav Yisroel.

And, in fact, you are partly wrong about the din of treif. Cholov Akum isn't, by definition treif. The point is that even if cholov akum is kosher, it is impermissable to be consumed. There is an opinion that suggests that cholov akum is permitted if it is impossible to mix in treif milk (for example, if there are no animals other than cows for a long distance from the milk farm); and there are opinions which suggest that the milk, assumed with near to 100% certainty to be kosher, would nonetheless be impermissable to drink because it is nonetheless cholov akum.

Now, why does it matter? Because despite your desire to throw mud at haredim (and Chabad in particular) there is a specific concept called cholov Yisroel which exists and must meet certain strict criteria (at least, more strict than the FDA), and for those who chose to keep that hiddur, your barbs are unwarranted. If you do not chose to keep that hiddur, then you don't have to, and R' Moshe ruled that you are acting in full compliance with Halocho. But you aren't keeping Cholov Yisroel. You're drinking cholov stam with R' Moshe's heter.

This concept is not primarily Kabbalistic. It has a specific place in halacha, and is an acceptable hiddur according to the simple understanding of halocho. However, many Chassidic rebbeim (as in, not just the Rebbe, whose opinion apparently means nothing to you) have said that there are additional Kabbalistic inyonim associated with this hiddur.

Moron.

[Shmarya]

You are WRONG. The fact is that you are unfamiliar with how this halakha is applied. You also contradict yourself. Keeping old-style halav yisrael as a *hiddur* is fine – but it is only a hiddur. Halav in America has no hashash of treifot. Why? Because of government inspection, laws, economics, no camels, etc. Therefore it has the din of halav yisrael. If it did not, it could not be consumed by Jews. That is what Rav Moshe's teshuva means. That is how it is applied – except in some haredi circles, most notably, Chabad.

I am not a moron. Neither is Nachum Klafter.

[abk]

Well, Nachum isn't.

[Avodas Avoda]

Well congratulations. You've now repeated yourself twice without adding anything new to the table. I hope you're proud.

What I wrote stands. Your "arguments" don't prove otherwise. They merely suggest the opposite emphatically and without proof. Even Nachum didn't say what you seem to think he said (but you'll no doubt respond back with "did too!").

I didn't call Nachum a moron. I called you a moron.

Moron.

[Shmarya]

Again, we must be clear.

Way before Rav Moshe paskined, Orthodox Jews in America – including the vast majority of rabbis – drank halav stam and ate halav stam products.

Why? Because they held like the Tashbetz and others who were maikel.

Life did not begin with Rav Moshe's teshuva.

All Rav Moshe's teshuva does is allow those who did *not* hold like the Tashbetz (i.e., post-WW2 eastern European haredim) to consume halav stam. Rav Moshe did this by proving that the laws, economics, and goverment testing counted as aidut and therefore removed any hashash and was equal to a Jew watching the milking.

These post-WW2 haredim (the Frierdiker Rebbe, for example) were institutionally quite critical of the American rabbinate and the prevailing minhagim hamakom. Halav stam was a major issue of conflict. Yet only one halav yisrael milk company existed in those days and it was quite small. Getting milk – especially for children – was very difficult.

Rav Moshe allowed these families to drink halav stam w/o fear or guilt and w/o relying on maikel poskim and minhag hamakom.

But Rav Moshe did not, could not – and would not – overturn those poskim and that minhag. That is why his yeshiva's vending machines sell Hershey's candy.

For those rejecting minhag hamakom and insisting on halav yisrael, Rav Moshe found a way to paskin that halav stam in America equals halav yisrael. Everyone else was already relying on minhag hamakom.

[Bnei Levi]

Shmarya,

Even though Rabbi Moshe is mattir cholev stam in America, nevertheless he ends his teshuva with a statement that balei hanefesh should still drink cholev yisroel. This is similar to his teshuva on the end of Shabbos, where he writes that 50 minutes after shkiya is perfectly fine but balei hanefesh should keep 72. So while R' Moshe may mattir milk in America, there is no reason to disparage people who want to keep cholev yisroel since R' Moshe himself recommends that for balei hanefesh.

[Avodas Avoda]

You're just repeating yourself. The final point is incorrect. Read the Tshuva. It says that cholov stam is mutar. It doesn't say that cholov stam is actually cholov Yisroel (which is totally different).

His Tshuva had nothing to do with minhag haMakom. It didn't even mention minhag hamakom. The Jews that arrived in the 40s moved into communities populated largely by other Jews who had arrived in the 40s. Crown Heights was, at that time, one such community. At one point, Crown Heights was home to the Bobover Rebbe and many other Chassidic Rebbeim. They didn't drink Cholov stam.

Now, what you want to contend is that the Chassidim should have adopted the customs of the German maskilim because the maskilim beat the Chassidim to Manhattan by a couple of years. What I am telling you is that there is no din of minhag hamakom when two or three or many different communities inhabit the same "makom." Indeed, even the word makom here is difficult to translate. What constitutes a makom in America? All of Manhattan? All of the 5 boroughs? The Skullen part of Boro Park? You seem to think that from the Atlantic to the Pacific constitutes one makom, and anyone who comes from a different background and tries to be more machmir is a rebel. That, obviously, is ridiculous.

Now, none of this has anything to do with our issue, which is cholov stam. R' Moshe's psak is a totally different issue that we have discussed before, and about which you will probably repeat yourself.

And if you do, then you're a moron.

Moron.

[Shmarya]

Hey! Nice to see you're still out there!

A Ba'al Nefesh is someone who – for spiritual reasons – is especially careful with his observance of mitzvot. It is a level that must be achieved over time, with much work, for one who is especially motivated. It is not something all – or most – should try for.

A true Ba'al Nefesh would keep halav yisrael without disparaging those who do not. A true Ba'al Hanefesh would not paskin or otherwise mandate or encourage others to keep halav yisrael.

The behavior of many haredim today proves that they are *not* ba'alei nefesh, yet they insist on keeping halav yisrael and often label halav stam as treife. Then we have Chabad's misrepresentation of Rav Moshe's teshuva.

Direct your criticism to where it belongs: Crown Heights, Boro Park, Williamsburg and Monsey.

[Shmarya]

The nice-to-see-you're-still-out-there comment was direct to Benei Levi.

As for AA's rude and ill-informed comments, let me point out to you that your grasp of history is weak and your grasp of halakha appears even weaker.

As for the name-calling, it suits you.

[Avodas Avoda]

See, there you go again. I don't see anyone who has disparaged keeping cholov stam. I don't see it anywhere. You keep on talking about it, but I don't see it.

My grasp on history and halacha I can't speak for (I am nogeah b'davar...) But your comments certainly have not posed a challege to my understandings. Like I've said in previous comments, you say little other than angry disparaging remarks and your arguments consist only of emphatically disagreeing with someone on objective matters. So I don't feel threatened by you. Gil and Nachum are a different story, and I'm talking with them on Gil's board... and enjoying it.

You have your own understanding of baal nefesh which is no more rooted in halacha than anyone else's. It doesn't say anywhere in any sefer that a normal guy shouldn't try to be a "Baal Nefesh..." indeed in many places the exact opposite is stated... that a person should be (or try to be) a Baal Nefesh even if he doesn't seem to be on that madrega. Certainly, someone who is less than perfect should no be disparaged merely for keeping a more strict standard of ritual observance.

As for the name calling... I normally don't use names, but today I'm enjoying it. But if you want, I'll stop.

Putz.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"So while R' Moshe may mattir milk in America, there is no reason to disparage people who want to keep cholev yisroel since R' Moshe himself recommends that for balei hanefesh."

Perhaps it's fine for a small number of people looking to be a modern day version of a nazir - they will, of course, also be letting their hair grow and give up drinking all of those l'chaims in pursuit of an elevated level of spirituality. There's no place to bring a sacrifice either, but let's not spoil the party too much.

It's also fine in the context of consumer choice; if you believe in supporting some local business, such as a Jewish dairy, there is ample Jewish legal history that supports - some say, requires - such consumer support. However, we also live in a time when local stores may carry more food delivered from far away places than local providers, and there' s not much a consumer can do in such cases. Consumer choice, however, does not mean that "chalav stam" is not kosher. A rational approach to supporting Jewish dairies would be to give preference to purchasing their products, but then using other "OU-D" products without fear or remorse otherwise.

It's not so fine, however, when keeping "chalav yisrael" becomes of part of a trend of gilding the lily of Jewish observance that leads to divisions in klal yisrael even amongst "religious" folks. When observance is refined until it is a fetish, it leads to bizarre belief and behavior such as declaring that someone that keeps "chalav yisrael" cannot even drink from a glass that once contained "chalav stam". You would think that Chabad folks would be smart enough to realize that acting in this separatist manner ultimately would have the effect of pushing friends and supporters away rather than toward both them and "observance".

By the way, the German Jews were certainly not the earliest Jews to reach the United States of America; the two oldest shuls in this country are Sephardic. I wonder how they ever managed to survive drinking all of that "chalav stam"? They most likely ate bread from the local goyish bakeries too. I fear for their souls; perhaps we should recite kaddish with extra kavanah in their memory?

[Shmarya]

1. "Certainly, someone who is less than perfect should no be disparaged merely for keeping a more strict standard of ritual observance."

He should be disparaged if he cheats on his taxes, steals, violates labor law, mistreats his employees, etc.

He should be disparaged if he learns little, davens late and and is not careful with bein adam l'havero halakhot.

He should be disparaged if he views his group as being superior to all others.

He should be if he uses language like yours.

In short, to be a ba'al nefesh one first must work on one's middot and refrain from stealing, cheating, robbing and geivah.

Trying to be a ba'al nefesh by keeping halav yisrael without first doing that is putting the cart before the horse.

[Shmarya]

2. AA (and his fellow travelers) –

There is a Jew who needs a kidney transplant in order to survive. His government refuses to pay for the transplant for reasons that are against halakha.

We need just over $100,000 to save his life.

This is an issue of pekiakh nefesh. It trumps all tzedaka. It trumps all personal luxuries. According to the Alter Rebbe, one must give up both meat and wine – even on Shabbat – and use that money to save his life.

Even a 'stam Jew,' someone who is not a ba'al nefesh, must do this. Kal v'chomer, anyone aspiring to be a ba'al nefesh must do this mitzva with speed and alacrity.

Detais of this man's life and his terrible situation can be found here:

http://www.TransplantNow.org/

Donations can be made securely online here:

https://www.charitybox.com/sdf/

I trust that you, your family, friends and community will rush to fulfill this great mitzva.

Thank you!

[Avodas Avoda]

A fool who demeans ritual observance does not deserve the respect you seem to demand from me in terms of my language. If you are a fool, I'll call you one unless I see some purpose served by holding back. Find me a place in shas or elsewhere which says to do otherwise.

As for lying on your taxes, learning little, believing his group to be above others (assuming we're talking about shomer Torah u'Mitzvos groups with a sound haskofo), etc. I agree with you. No problems there. But disparaging someone who keeps cholov Yisroel because someone else who keeps cholov Yisroel wasn't makpid in mitzvos bein adam l'chaveiro is foolish and arrogant. So is devoting an entire website to angry diatribes against religious establishments.

PS. Thanks for the website. I mean that.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Moron? Putz? Fool?

Boring, very boring. Come on, tough guy, let's see what you're made of: show off some insults that involve thought, cleverness, and an educated knowledge of some/any language. If you can, of course - please, don't strain anything on our account.

[Avodas Avoda]

No

[chozach]

Since when does Lubavitch have the copyright on Halav Israel? All hassidics do it and so do 99% of hareidi litvish yesheevish...
See aruch hashulchan who forbids it....

Many are erring about the source "ve'ein Yisrael RO"EIHU"
Torah can't change because of circumstance (unless you're reform etc.) (i.e. kitniyos etc.)

[Avodas Avoda]

Chozach... while you may be a great Rabbi, an even greater Rabbi by the name of R' Moshe Feinstein ruled that it is permitted to drink milk that is not supervised by Jews (cholov stam). Shmarya and I disagree as to the nature of this leniency. Is he saying that the FDAs watch is the same thing as cholov Yisroel for all intents and purposes, rendering cholov stam in America cholov Yisroel? Or is he saying that cholov stam is permitted to drink?

Either way, it isn't so simple as "The Aruch HaShulchan forbids it..." It never is.

Shmarya - Don't judge a Rebbe by his students. It's almost as bad as judging a blog based on the comments people post on it.

[some other guy]

AA and Shmarya: I don't understand your argument.

The Rabbonon made a gezeira not to drink milk that was unsupervised by a Jew. Hence we have the introduction of two halachic terms, "cholov yisroel", and "cholov akum", to differentiate between that which is kosher to drink and that which is treif [rabbinically].

If you rely upon a certain heter, whether it be FDA aprroval, "ain b'edro tamei", or whatever, you consider the milk to be kosher. If you don't rely upon it, you consider it treif. Whether you call it "cholov yisroel" is halachically irrelevant.

The term "cholov stam" was a term certain rabbis created to differentiate between milk that relied upon R. Moshe Feinstein's heterim and milk and milk that didn't and instead had a Jew supervising the process. R. Feinstein himself never used this term in writing (in his teshuvos, he simply called it "milk of companies"). The bottom line is either you hold you can drink it, or not. Who cares what it's called?

Of course, many people keep "cholov yirsoel" as a chumrah, meaning that they hold it to intrinsically be permissible, but nonetheless choose to refrain from eating it out of concern for the stringent opinion. This approach is of course halachically valid, as we see on many different issues throughout the poskim. Fine, but once again who cares what it's called?

Now, regarding kabbalistic implications, one could claim that even though certain heterim remove cholov stam from the gezeira and leave them permitted, nonetheless the "evil nature" of cholov akum remains and is still "metamei halev v'hamoach" unless it is actually watched by a Jew (and if so, you would say the same thing about the old heter of "ain b'edro tamei"). If anybody has any sources on this one way or another, I'd be interested to hear about them.

[emeslyaakov]

Regarding Rav Moshe z"l and the heter of halav stam, c'vodo bimkomo munach, however:

Anyone who knows how government inspection works in the milk industry, and the punishment for milk adulteration, knows that it is no big deal.

The fine for violation is minimal. The likelihood of being caught is minimal. Whether it is worthwhile for the particular dairy owner to adulterate his milk is a separate issue which does not come into play here.

Two examples, both I admit, going back to the 1970's. Dellwood milk was caught adulterating the milk. (With water it is true, but as far as government inspection, fines, and laws it is the same as adulterating with horse milk.) The NY News interviewed the president of Dellwood and asked "didn't you know that you would be caught?" He replied that they knew in advance that they would be caught, but decided that the amount of profit versus the amount of fine made it wothwhile to do it.

The second story happened in Dayton Ohio where I taught for a year. I personally spoke to a farmer who lost his license because he sold unpasteurized milk. He was shut down and selling his equipment. We bought unpasteurized milk every week from another farmer. If he had been caught, he would have been shut down also. He was not afraid. During the entire year, we never met one government inspector, and obviously the farmer was not afraid.

Some of the milk in America comes from huge dairies with thousands of farms, where it might be easy to inspect. Plenty of the milk comes from small places with fewer than 40 cows, places that also have horses, pigs and other non kosher animals.

By the way, someone is building a factory in St Louis to produce powdered horse milk, a delicacy which is allready commercially available in Belgium. Whole horse milk is available in France, Germany, Austria, Ireland and Belgium, inter alios.

Someone who wishes to close his eyes and not look at the metsius can continue to claim that government inspection is as if we are standing there watching, but someone who wants to see facts on the ground can easily ascertain that it is not true.

An analogy might be made with ambulance service in NY. Theoretically, ambulance services are commonly available to transport people in dange rof death to the hospital on a timely basis. On a realistic level, it was necessary to start hatzalah, because too many Jews died before they were picked up and taken to the hospital by the other ambulance services.

[Shmarya]

You don't understand. Any non-kosher milk will ruin the pastuerization process. No farmer will risk it. A small farmer caught adding water will be out of business immediately. No major dairy will buy his output. Really, you don't understand the industry – or the halakha.