Chabad Disrupts Sharon NYC Speech – Sharon "False Messiah","Asshole" – "Shame On You Sharon"

Hundreds of Chabad hasidim disrupted Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's speech today in New York:

Lubavitch crash Sharon visit

Chabad Hasidim opposed to disengagement from Gaza interrupt Sharon’s speech to New York Jewish leaders, get ejected from hall; Outside hundreds of demonstrators chant: “Shame on you Sharon”
By Yitzhak Benhorin and Efrat Weiss

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was met Sunday evening with curses from anti-disengagement protesters, many of them of Lubavitch Hasidim, while speaking to New York Jewish leaders in Baruch College.

During the speech, which lasted twenty minutes, part of the audience stood up, cursed the prime minister and chanted anti-disengagement slogans.

According to one of those present, the episode “was extremely embarrassing and completely alien to the American mentality.”

After a couple of disturbances, including one in which a heckler called Sharon an “a--hole,” the prime minister responded with a sarcastic “thank you.” The protesters were ejected from the hall and Sharon finished his speech, which was met with thunderous applause.

Hundreds demonstrated outside Baruch College, screaming at Sharon “Shame on you.”

New York City Police arrested a number of protesters for disturbing the peace.…

Arutz Sheva (also known as Israel National News) reports:

Chabad to Protest Against Sharon
15:44 May 22, '05 / 13 Iyar 5765

(IsraelNN.com) Lubavitch (Chabad) followers are preparing a massive protest while Prime Minister Ariel Sharon speaks at Yeshiva University in New York this week.
Chabad organizers said Sharon is "a false messiah" and that speeches will call for Jews to resist surrendering land in Israel.…

Shame on Sharon? Shame on Chabad and shame on its dead rebbe.

Comments

thats what should be done we shouldnt hide in the closet like you snags being scared to say anything that might make us look bad you guys are little wussys that sucks americans butt

[Paul Freedman]

well, unlike yourself we happen to be Americans too. any fool can run around convinced of their own self-righteousness and cursing people who disagree with them. it is particulary inappropriate for the more sectarian (for you big he-men, that means small groups who think they are doing the will of heaven while everybody else is a pussy) nationalist orthodox who live by the mercy and grace of taxpayers, American and Israeli alike, who they curse while pocketing their money.

[Paul Freedman]

that would also be big he-men who don't leave their big he-men names.

[Eliyahu]

Shmarya Rosenberg (webmaster),
You think you're such a modern Jew and it's Chabadnikim who are in the dark? Tell me what's so englightened about supporting the OSLO/Disengagement peace process, as you do?

Is it the fact that the average salary of Arabs in YESHA has fallen by 2/3 since OSLO (instead of growing 10% annualy as it did between '67 and OSLO)?

Is it the 3000 arabs killed when forced by the PLO who attack Jewish soldiers?

Is it the 1100 Jews killed by the guns and the money for bomb making given under OSLO?

You are operating out of pure hate, a hate which is blinding you into supporting murderous policies like OSLO/Disengagement.

If you really care about Ethiopian Jews, come and live here in EY and help them in person instead of badmouthing everyone else.

[Schneur]

Leaving aside the political merits of the Sharon plan. I am interested to know how rabbi Krinsky and Co. will play this story in terms of his secular and liberal finacial backers.
Several years ago he denied that Chabad played a role in the Netanyahu campaign even though it was clear that Diamond Joe Gutnick was playing a key role in that campaign.
If the liberal and secular Jews in the US knew what chabad really believes in terms of Israeli politics, messianic beliefs, attitudes towards secualr education, attitudes towards other jewish religious entities, they probably would cut off a great deal of their donations.

[Eli]

Have you seen this one?
http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/

[Chana]

My view on the Israeli Peace process is accessible here: http://www.silvergleam.modblog.com/?show=blogview&blog_id=562240

However, you do not need to read that, the point that I am referring to now is in my quote that, "I do NOT believe that Jews, Israelis, or anyone else should stand in way of the government. If the government decides this is government policy, then Rabbis and those of spiritual orientation are not to get involved. This is the rule of the politicians, not of religious people, and therefore those people who are out there wearing orange stars in memory of the Holocaust, the soldiers who are disobeying their government and refusing to remove people...this is wrong."

While I absolutely disagree with people acting this way- it only degrades/ demotes them and makes a Chilul Hashem in other people's eyes, I would question why you say, "shame on its dead Rebbe." After all, that is exactly it- the Rabbi is dead. And some movements mistakenly believe that he is the Messiah. Obviously he is not.

Why is it his shame and his fault that people who claim to follow him behave in such a manner? What is there he can do to stop it, even if he wished to do so?

I can understand shame on those protestors and perhaps even some of the Chabad, but shame on the Rabbi? Or even the entire Chabad? Is that not at least somewhat of a generalization? I think so...

[Avodas Avoda]

I'm not surprised that Smarya is unhappy, or that his readership is unhappy. Shmarya is very devoted to Jewish tradition.

For example, in the 30s and 40s, there was a Jewish tradition not to make a lot of noise about the Jews in Germany, Poland, etc. (many of whom were nothing more than archaic ultra-religious dinosaurs anyhow) and their "situation."

Again, in the 70s and 80s, Jews held strongly to their tradition of not making noise when Arab terrorists murdered Jews in Israel (they live on the other side of the Atlantic for heaven's sake).

And now, since the Intifada began, we have held strong to our old tradition of letting the Media tell us when we can protest the murder of Jews in Israel and when we can not.

It is the year 2005, and we're keeping the tradition alive. In America, it is a a right (given by G-d, according to American tradition) to protest against our government and other governments. Of course, that doesn't apply to Jews, and especially not to Chabad. So keep up the good work, Shmarya.

Continue to fight the good fight. Knock the teeth out of any embarassing religious fanatic that shouts "Never Again." Make fun of anybody they peyos who lives in Yesha or Gaza, and who insists on acting so darn Jewish even though he knows that bothers us modern folk here in America... and who protsts against being kicked out of his home for the second time in his life (the first time was in the 30's, also known as "a long time ago.")

I'm with you 100%. I hate myself and everybody else, and I want the world to know it!

(The above is a parody... I do not hate myself)

[Shmarya]

Your grasp of history seems quite poor.

Here are the facts:

You write: "For example, in the 30s and 40s, there was a Jewish tradition not to make a lot of noise about the Jews in Germany, Poland, etc. (many of whom were nothing more than archaic ultra-religious dinosaurs anyhow) and their 'situation.'"

1. Most of the Jews in Germany were Reform and quite assimilated.

2. Most of the Jews living in Warsaw were *NOT* religious. They were assimilated, non-observant bundists, etc.

3. Many American Jews did protest Nazi atrocities. However, many American Jewish *leaders* and *organizations* did not. Among those who remained silent was Lubavitch under the leadership of the 6th rebbe, Yosef Yitzchok Schneersohn. The 6th rebbe *OPPOSED* the Rabbis March on Washington, the rescue activities of the Va'ad Hatzalah and the activities of the Bergson Group.

4. In your list of issues about which American Jews allegedly remained silent, you left off Ethiopian Jewry, Soviet Jewry, Syrian Jewry, Iranian Jewry and President Reagan's visit to Bitburg.

Chabad did *NOTHING* to help Ethiopian Jews, and was silent on every one of these issues.

5. There are effective and ineffective ways to publicly protest. Chabad's latest efforts clearly fall into the latter category.

[Mendy]

Dear person (animal) whatever u r,
The only merit u probably have is that G-d A-mighty created u.
First of all your general blasphamy on this webpage is distraughtful, dispicable, repulsive and shameful. Secondly, just as u defend the arab causes u epitomize their very nature, i.e. distortion of authentic genuine history. Where were u in the 30's and 40's?! The Lubavitcher Rebbes' were very blatantly involed in rescuing european Jewry and immediately active in the renissance of Judasim in the USA and the wrold over, yes everywhere. The Rebbe's were in fact concerned for the welfare of every single Jew, including shrutzers like the shameful u. Unlike the others who write fancy articles claimimg the credit of restoring the continuity of yiddishket, Chabad Lubavitch are the ones who actualy stood actively in the vanguard guaraneeing the future of Torah and Judaism survival throughout the entire universe. I suggest that instead of distorting and recreating history so that u can make your biased and baseless claims, first learn some history and a little chassidus might change your animal a bit too. Perhaps one day you'll be a mentsh. "Shame on u"

[Shmarya]

Try learning history:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2004/11/the_politics_of.html

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2004/09/1943_1983_a_com.html

Your heroes were FAILURES.

[greg]

mr. alpert;

i would just like to point out that joe gutnik is not "chabad", he is a chabad chassid, but just because he financed bibi's campaign - dosn't mean that CHABAD financed it!

at one point chabad in israel wanted to create a party, but the rebbe said that cahad is not a political party.

chabad is a chassidus and a organization dedicated to bringing all jews back to their roots (including shmarya) and to open shul's and chabad centers around the world.

that is why i was upset that "chabad" showed up to this demonstration. just because menachem garlitzky has nothing to do with his life - it dosn't mean that he has to go saying "chabad" is demonstrating. if he wants to demonstrate KOL HAKAVOD but don't do it on chabads chesbon!

rabbi osdabo forbid the bochrim from going to this demonstration but rabbi shwei allowed it and encoureged it! BOCHRIM ARE SUPPOSED TO DEMONSTRATE TO HASHEM THRU DOING WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO TO; learning and davening and doing acts of goodness and kindness! going to demonstrate in manahattan will not do what avodah can do.

i spoke to you zalman alpert about your uncle who u r named after, so u know who i am and if u want to discuss this further u can email me.

[Schneur]

To Greg. Essentially you are saying the same thing I am that Lubavitch should not get involved in politics unless there is (was) a specific horoah from the Rebbe.
I am not sure I agree with your description of Joe Gutnick. There was a time that he was mamosh Chabad. The KFAR CHABAD magazine had his name and oicture on almost every page of every issue vechuli.
He called himself the special emissary of the rebbe for shleimas hooretz and I never saw any Chabad official deny that title from him.
It is clear thati n the ealy election campaign of Bibi N., that chabad support in terms of money , manpower and support from Rabbi Aaranov greaty aided Bibi in his victory.
And I have no problem with that either,
I just find it interestingthat for the Amerikaner Yolden Krinsky paints a completely distorted picture of the belief system and "political" views of Chabad.
I recall in the NY TIMES at that time, Krinsky or Shmotkin denying that Lubavitchers were helping Bibi. This of course was damage control for the American millionaires who are all liberal and anti Likkud.
Looking forward to hearing from you . I also should add that news reports indicate it was not the Lubavitcher crowd who used dirty language rather Sharon supporters!

[Avodas Avoda]

Go ahead and repeat some of the filth you've written on other parts of this page. I said "many" were religious. That doesn't mean "most" or "all." Many were religious, and now, no-thanks to the American Jewish establishment that you so desire to emulate, many are now tortured and dead.

The Rebbeim of Chabad were Moser Nefesh to save Jewish lives and souls. When nobody was talking about the Jews in Russia, Kahane was, and the Rebbe was. Today, FREE is one of the larger Russian Jewish organizations in America... and the reason is that when Russian Jews came to America, they immediately came to the one (frum) name they recognized: Chabad.

Indeed, Chabad has been involved in every unconventional island of Judaism where other organizations have desired not to get involved.

The Rebbe was well known for caring about everyone, not just Jews. But he wasn't about to care for everyone at the expense of the Jews, which is exactly what happens if Israel begins to take in many non-Jewish immigrants like the Ethiopians, and holds halachically dubious "mass conversion" ceremonies.

But, of course, now that (in your opinion, for the first time) Chabad is protesting another anti-Jewish atrocity, you're upset. Better we should hand Hamas a white flag and control of Jerusalem rather than (G-d forbid) get a little upset over the desecration of Jewish homes.

Oh, but I apologize in advance. I know you're going to be offended that I disagreed with you. "Learn some history!" "Everyone knows that I'm the only one who is allowed to be right!" "Whatever Chabad does, they'll be wrong." Ok, I give in. I was wrong. I'm on my way to Hamas headquarters right now to turn myself in. I do so in keeping with the Jewish tradition of letting the goyim roll over us, a tradition you have kept alive through your website.

You should have a refuas hadaas, Shmarya...

[mendy]

BH

Your distortions, twists and blatant lies are NOT history they are his stoy. Read the true facts is you wish to know the truth, don't make it up

[Schneur]

In his "memoirs' Reb Leib Poupko the son of the Chofetz Chaim writes that he suffered frustration in his travels to Poland on behalf of the Mishneh Berurah. As a Litvak he was not acustomed to the derech hachaim of the Gerer chasiidim in Warsaw. So he told his father that he could not take chasidim anymore, his father's response was (if I recall) who is telling you to go there if you are frustrated. And the Holy gaon went on to praise the role of chassidim in contemporary Judaism.
So I say to all the Lubavitcher reading this blog , why get angry ? Just ignore the site.No need for constant anger etc.You have made your machoah !

[Yukel,Yold]

The Chofetz Chaims last name was Kagan, so ho was a Poupko a son?
What is it about Shmaryas' site that brings the lunatic lubabs out of their mental asylums?Lubabs:This is an open forum, you are free to voice your opinions without showing your mental instabilities.Funny a few years back Sharon was Lubabs idol, the 'strongman' saved from a hijacking by the Rebbe.Today he has suddenly 'lost his mind', same has happened to any Israeli politician who realistically realizes that without ceding territory there is little realistic chance of peace.But why should Lubab care, after all their 'rear ends' do not get any closer to army service than giving out doughnuts of Channukah.Risking their lives for their right wing beliefs?Lol, never!They send 'others' to do it for them, fortified with jelly doughnuts......

[Avi]

I have just begun to visit this site.
But I am totally amazed at the vicious attacks on Chabad and the Rebbe in particular
by this Webmaster. I must protest!

He routinely displays Sinas Yisroel and attacks Torah Sages.
In addition, his psychosis causes him to distort reality.

The fact is that the Rebbes and Chabad Chassidim literally gave their lives
Al Kiddush HaShem by running secret Cheders, Mikvos and Matzoh bakeries etc.
(Please remember that Rebbe Yosef Yitzchak lost his daughter and son-in-law in
Auchwitz, and that the Rebbe’s father who was one of the leaders of Russian Jewry
was imprisoned and exiled for his activity on behalf of fellow Jews).

One only has to ask Chabad Chassidim to be inundated by the courageous acts of
Mesiras Nefesh that ordinary Chassidim had in those times. To deny this is an insult to their memory (may HaShem have mercy). Just because there is no documentation of Chabad participating in ONE march, does not mean
1) That the Rebbe was not involved. The fact is that the Rebbe was in contact with Rabbi Silver!
2) The Rebbe did not do many other things BEHIND the scenes. This, by the way was the approach of Chabad.

As far as the protest last Sunday. We can all argue the merits and it may be that individuals did not act properly. However, the rally and speeches were given with eloquence by Rabbis affiliated with Chabad and YU. (Rabbi’s Pruzanski, Shachter and Tendler spoke, I believe).

In addition, Tedaka was distributed and children recited passages that affirm our unity
and belief in G-d.

I believe this rally was a major Kiddush HaShem. It is unfortunate that your immature
hatred of Chabad prevents you from recognizing this. Whatever harm Chabad or the Rebbe supposedly did to you, please remember, that there are many others who
willfully gave their lives ,with a purity of heart, to follow the Rebbe , because they realized, then and now, that a Rebbe and Tzaddik cares for each and every Jew.

[Shmarya]

Try actually reading the referenced posts. As historian Bryan Mark Rigg as shown, the Frierdiker Rebbe OPPOSED the Rabbis March and the rescue action of the Va'ad Hatzalah. I have written extensively about this. You might actually try reading *before* you post.

[avi]

Please read MY post. To summarize for you, it was in support of the march, to state that
it had the support of many types ( YU, flatbush, modern etc.), that it included
Torah, T'fila and Tzedaka, and that the speeches were eloquent.

If you are against public protests, that is certainly a valid point of view, supported by
many authorities, especially when other efforts are being made that may be more successful.

But, it appears that the purpose of your posts is not to debate the merits of a protest,
but to attack the Rebbe and Chabad. ( Your quote: "Shame on Sharon? Shame on Chabad and shame on its dead rebbe.".)
Even now, your response to my post ( if it is indeed to my post, but it doesn't matter) is to
attack the Frierdike Rebbe.

If your position is anti-protest, why attack the Rebbe for NOT supporting a march? The answer is obvious:
You just want to smear the Rebbes which is why you have to add insult to injury by claiming that the Rebbe
opposed "the rescue action of the Va'ad Hatzalah"

Let me again protest by answering your last slander.

Just because the Frierdike Rebbe did not attend or support the march,
does not prove that the Rebbe did nothing or as you say "opposed" rescue efforts.
To insinuate this is to insult the very being of a Torah Jew, let alone a Tzaddik and Rebbe.

As you obviously know, the position of the Rebbe's was that of "quiet diplomacy". This was in fact the
position of the Rebbe regarding Soviet Jewry. The Rebbe never publicly condoned the marches etc of SSSJ etc.
One could claim that this was a mistake, but again, read MY post: The Rebbe had a secret underground army of
Chassidim that were THERE in the trenches and whose very lives were at stake. Just being affiliated as Chabad,
or "Schneerson's men" meant torture etc. Obviously, the Rebbes had to be very careful.

We do not need Mr. Rigg to tell us what the Rebbe and Chabad did at that time. There are scores of letters
between the Rebbe and the Joint etc as well as to other Rabbi's concerning rescue. But more importantly,
the Rebbe obviously knew the people involved and if he chose to do things independently, he certainly
must have had reasons. This includes "opposing" the Va'ad Hatzalah, if needed. Did the Va'ad Hatzalah support Rav Weismandel's efforts to save hundreds of thousands?

Anyone with the slightest knowledge of Chabad, knows of the mesiras nefesh of the Frierdike Rebbe for
world Jewry. The final proof, however, is to ask around. It has been 50 years ( B"H HL"T) but there are
still many people alive today who were smuggled out of that hell because of Chabad's efforts.

So again, I must protest.

[Shmarya]

1. "If your position is anti-protest, why attack the Rebbe for NOT supporting a march? The answer is obvious:
You just want to smear the Rebbes"

No.

Is this the 'logic' they taught you in Lubavitch Yeshiva? Is this how you learn Gemara?

Normal people and normal Jewish organizations do NOT have a policy of a) opposing all public demonstrations or, b) endorsing all public demonstrations. Each situation is evaluated based on its unique merits. Further, there are DIFFERENT types of public protest, some, depending on each situation, more effective than others. I don't question Chabad's RIGHT to protest. I question the style an manner of the protest chosen.

2, The Frierdiker Rebbe and Holocaust (Non-)Rescue:

I suggest you actually STUDY HISTORY. All you currently do is parrot Chabad PR.

Real, actual scholarly work has been done on the Frierdiker Rebbe's response to the Holocaust. He opposed political action (from 1942 onward), opposed the methods of the Va'ad Hatzala and the Va'ad itself, and put his efforts into a messiah campaign instead. See Bryan Mark Rigg's "Rescued From The Reich" (Yale, New haven, 2004) for details. Much of Rigg's material comes from Chabad's own archives and from the newspaper publiched by the Frierdiker Rebbe himself.

3. "Did the Va'ad Hatzalah support Rav Weismandel's efforts to save hundreds of thousands?"

Yes.

[Avodas Avoda]

Wow, Shmarya, you're really gaining ground. Reading "STUDY HISTORY" and "The Frierdicker Rebbe opposed..." for the 3rd time in a row really effected my opinion this time. Admittedly, the first two times had little impact. But the third time you wrote the EXACT SAME THING really hit home.

That definitely takes the place of rational debate or providing evidence. Good Job.

Avi- Calm down. You're not going to win this one. He has a very good response to any of the intelligent pieces of evidence you could possibly bring: He'll tell you to go "STUDY HISTORY" and say "You're wrong!!" a 4th time!!!!!

Oh, and harping incessantly on Chabad and making statements like "shame on its dead Rebbe" doesn't at all constitute hatred of Chabad. Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. No No. No No No. (You notice how each time I say no, my argument becomes more compelling?)

[Shmarya]

"Wow, Shmarya, you're really gaining ground. Reading "STUDY HISTORY" and "The Frierdicker Rebbe opposed..." for the 3rd time in a row really effected my opinion this time. Admittedly, the first two times had little impact. But the third time you wrote the EXACT SAME THING really hit home."

I cited FACTS and SOURCES. You disregard them.

Further, telling you to study history and encouraging you to read those sources is not a bad thing.

[Avodas Avoda]

You cited a single book. "Rescued from the Reich" isn't Torah m'Sinai. You're more willing to believe an author who isn't frum then the words of Tzaddikim.

That would almost make sense if it was more than one guy out there whose understanding of Chabad history leaves something to be desired who you insisted on quoting.

But, go repeat yourself. Its beginning to make an impact. You've almost convinced me. Repeat yourself three or more times and I'll run around chanting hateful anti-Chabad mantras and psychobabble like you.

[Shmarya]

The man cites his sources and quotes them. Almost every damning source are quotes from the Frierdiker Rebbe himself from his own newspaper and from 'talks' that he released in print form. Chabad has not and can not refute them.

Now, as I've said repeatedly, GO LEARN.

[Avodas Avoda]

Look, buddy, the facts are clear. Your interpretation of them is just that: your interpretation. Insulting people doesn't change that fact.

I learn full time. You go learn... stop wasting time spreading hate on the internet.

[Shmarya]

Yes, "the facts are clear":

The Frierdiker Rebbe opposed political action, opposed the Rabbis March On Washington, opposed the Va'ad Hatzalah and started a Moshiach Campaign rather than work for rescue. He even claimed that the Va'ad, etc. would not be successful and were in fact counterproductive. The only way to save lives, he wrote, was to bring the messiah.

History has proved the Frierdicker Rebbe wrong.

[Avodas Avoda]

Lets assume that you've convinced me of the facts (by repeating them 5 times). But how has history proven the Frierdicker Rebbr wrong?

Its wrong to appeal for divine intervention in the fact of an evil as bad as...?!

For someone like you, who has no emunah, the only road is political. But for a Chosid, the dimensions are much wider.

Now, lets stop pretending I agree with you (because I don't): These marches had little effect on American decision making. It doesn't really look like the FR was wrong even from a political PoV.

But this has all been a tangent. You're trying to distract the debate from the original question: Why are you upset about Chabad inaction then, and Chabad action today? Could it be that you would have criticized Chabad no matter what we had done? For ex.: "The Lubavitchers aren't protesting! Shame on them, and shame on... (r''l)!" or "The Lubavitchers are protesting! Shame on..." or even "The Lubavitchers have brokered a deal with Washington and Sharon. The Moshiach has come and cited Chabad as his primary reason for coming. G-d is happy. Shame on them, and shame..."?

!

[Shmarya]

1. "These marches had little effect on American decision making. It doesn't really look like the FR was wrong even from a political PoV."

FACT: The Rabbis March on Washington caused the creation of the US Government's War Refugee Board. The War Refugee Board saved more than 200,000 Jews.

FACT: The Va'ad Hatzalah supported that march. The Frierdiker Rebbe opposed it.

FACT: The Va'ad Hatzalah saved many lives. The Frierdiker Rebbe did not.

FACT: The Frierdiker Rebbe opposed the Va'ad's methods and its purpose. He claimed bringing the messiah was the ONLY way to save Jews from Hitler.

FACT: The Frierdiker Rebbe's opposition to the Va'ad was PUBLIC. He condemned the Va'ad and its rabbis and urged Jews not to support them.

FACT: The Frierdiker Rebbe competed with the Va'ad in raising rescue funds ("pidyon shvuyim") but the Frierdiker Rebbe used a significant portion of the money he raised to pay for his new Brooklyn-based yeshiva. There were several yeshivot already in Brooklyn. Most Lubavitchers attended Torah Vodass. But the Rebbe built a COMPETING yeshiva during the height of WW2, diverting money from rescue to do so.

Deal with the facts.

[avi]

Shmarya,
Again you miss my point, and this time you get to insult learning in Lubavitch. Where does it stop? Can anyone have a rational discussion with you? My point is that your comments had nothing to do with the Rally and everything to so with spreading hate for Chabad. You grab onto any topic with which you can spread this invective. In any debate one should focus on the topic at hand. But you want to apply your “Klal” of “hate Chabad “ to everything. Please get rational.

At least you said you do not want to just smear the Rebbe. That’s a start. I hope that references to “dead rabbi” unrelated to the topic won’t appear again.

I do not profess to know the policy of every Jewish organization. In fact, I do not know the exact policy of the Rebbe. However, The Rebbe, as most Gedolim, held fast to policies that have a source in Torah. The Rebbe, coming from generations of Gedolim that dealt with Czarist Russia and were imprisoned on behalf of K’lal Yisroel, and the FR, himself having been imprisoned and freed, certainly had extensive experience in these matters. This is a historical fact.

My statement was, that I believe, the policy of the Rebbe was one of “quiet diplomacy”. But there were certainly situations in the later years, where the Rebbe ,was more vocal. But let me get to your point that “Each situation is evaluated based on its unique merits …I don't question Chabad's RIGHT to protest. I question the style an manner of the protest chosen”

If that is the case, why denigrate the FR for not participating or even opposing the one ( or more) march(es) that you cited. The Rebbe must have “evaluated” that that “situation” was not productive to HIS own efforts, even though it may have been productive on other fronts.

I greatly respect Rabbi Weiss’s efforts on behalf of SSSJ. But for reason’s known to the Rebbe , he did not publicly support the protests. This does NOT mean that the Rebbe did nothing for Soviet Jewry. Furthermore, I don’t remember the Rebbe condemning the public protests.

The same sentiment can be applied to the FR and his efforts. In addition, I agree 100% with Avodas that “Rescued from the Reich" isn't Torah m'Sinai.” however, scholarly it appears. ( Are you related to him? Is there $$ involved? ) Again, just ask some older Yidden. You won’t have to go far to see that in many situations, Chabad saved their lives. Again, this is not meant to detract from other rescue efforts and their successes, or to imply, that Chabad was the only one helping. Far be it. Furthermore, concerning the smears that the FR’s opinion was that the Yidden there were deserving ( CV”Sh) of the punishment. The FR is quoted in replying to a question why the Holocaust did not happen in U.S: HaShem gave the “potch” in the Panim (face) i.e. that European Jewry was the Elite.

You keep telling saying "STUDY HISTORY and “GO LEARN”. I cited Rav Weissmandel because that is one of the most famous historical accounts of treachery against a true Jewish hero. If you have ever read “Perfidy” you would know that RW was thwarted by the establishment and that his agent was imprisoned while trying to broker a deal for Yidden who were being killed at a rate of 100,000 a DAY ( HL”T). This was cited, to show that other Gedolim, had their own derech which may not have coincided with the establishment.

One could question the decisions. of everyone at that time. I would suggest, however, that there was not one true way to rescue the Yidden at that time and that WE , sitting in relative peace, should not denigrate any Gadol’s approach. Certainly not with the broad disdain and insinuations that you have applied to the FR.

To conclude, my point is to protest the smears on Chabad at every opportunity, regardless of merit.

Furthermore ( Back to Topic)

FACT: Sharon plans “Ethnic cleansing” of Jews.

FACT: Jews ( Chabad as well as others) protested . YOU OPPOSE this and denigrate Chabad and the Rebbe

Do YOU believe that they “deserve” it? Do we get to smear your name in 50 years?

Deal with it!

Sincerely,

Avi

p.s I’ve just seen your latest post and hope to reply. But again, it’s just a distortion to smear the FR. The WRB was created in 1944. (Although, there were rallies as early as 1942).

The War Refugee Board was established by special request of U.S. Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, who had presented the president with evidence about the State Department’s systematic efforts to sabotage rescue efforts. Practically, it was established at a very late stage for most Jews in Europe, was under-funded, and received little assistance from the rest of the Administration”

http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/chronology/1942-1945/1944/chronology_1944_1.html

[Shmarya]

What is it about actual FACTS that confuses you Chabadniks?

1. Sharon does NOT propose "ethnic cleansing" (which, by the way, is a form of MASS MURDER, GENOCIDE).

2. The Frierdicker Rebbe's OWN WORDS AND ACTIONS INDICT HIM.

3. "I cited Rav Weissmandel because that is one of the most famous historical accounts of treachery against a true Jewish hero. If you have ever read “Perfidy” you would know that RW was thwarted by the establishment and that his agent was imprisoned while trying to broker a deal for Yidden who were being killed at a rate of 100,000 a DAY ( HL”T). This was cited, to show that other Gedolim, had their own derech which may not have coincided with the establishment."

A. Ben Hecht, the author of Perfidy, was a partner of Hillel Kook (aka, Peter Bergson). They created and organized the RABBIS MARCH ON WASHINGTON, the march the Frierdiker Rebbe OPPOSED.

B. Fuchs wrote Min Hametzar about R. Wiessmandal and the Rescue Committee. I owned (until R. Manis Friedman lost it in his house) a first edition of that book. I went to university with his son and bought several copies of the book from him and gave or loaned them to local rabbis and community leaders. The book was later (after much opposition from certain left-of-center Jewish organizations) published in English by ArtScroll as Out of the Whilrwind. I gave a copy of that book to Senator Rudy Boschwitz as a thank-you a couple of months after Operation Solomon.

C. Again, the Frierdicker Rebbe's attempts at rescue failed. On the other hand, the Va'ad Hatzalah saved thousands of Jews.

3. "The War Refugee Board was established by special request of U.S. Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau …"

The War Refugee Board was not createded in a vacuum. Morgenthau did not want to go to Roosevelt with the request to start the board. He preferred 'quiet diplomacy,' and wanted to convince the State Department to clean up its act by quiet, behind the scenes negotiations with the Secretary of State. But in response to the mounting PUBLIC PRESSURE from the Bergson Group, including the Rabbis March, Morgenthau's aids convinced him that he had to go over the head of the Secretary of State and lobby the president directly. He used pressure generated by the Bergson Group and their allies in Congress to pressure Roosevelt, convincing the president that, if the president did not act, Congress and the people would, and that would have disasterous political consequences for the Roosevelt Administration only months before an election. Rooosevelt gave in and created the War Refugee Board.

[avi]

What is it about actual FACTS that confuses you Chabadniks?

See below. I used it as a euphemism but the definition actually applies.

http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=ethnic+cleansing&x=16&y=19
Main Entry: ethnic cleansing
Function: noun
: the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of ethnic minorities by a dominant majority group

2. The Frierdicker Rebbe's OWN WORDS AND ACTIONS INDICT HIM.

No they don’t. The FR was defending European Jewry against self-righteous Americans (i.e. the backside)

3. http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/brenner.htm ( I can’t vouch for the accuracy of this site)

…the other an Agudist-warned him that he was being lured into a trap and would be arrested. Brand was reassured by Echud Avriel, a leading WZO rescue figure, that this warning was false and motivated by factional malice.[(4)]; However, Brand was in fact arrested by the British.

BTW, sorry about the missing book.

3. Known as the "Bergsonites" or the "Bergson Group" after leader Peter Bergson, they used unconventional ways to drive home their message, thus being at odds with establishment Jewish leaders in the United States as well as the Zionist leadership in Palestine.

The Rabbis' March in October 1943 was attended only by Orthodox rabbis, even though Bergson had tried to recruit Jews from all sectors and clergy of all faiths.

A unique form of protest at the time, Bergson was condemned by American Jewish leadership in the strongest terms.

http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1522

p.s I do not wish to denigrate Bergson , just to offer info. I agree that this rally helped create the WRB. But, this was not the only or possibly main contributing factor. In 1944 it was becoming public knowledge and an embarrassment to the U.S.

3C. “ the Frierdicker Rebbe's attempts at rescue failed. On the other hand, the Va'ad Hatzalah saved thousands of Jews. “

No one is disputing the Va'ad’s success. The point is that the FR may have had a different strategy, like RW.

The FR’s attempts were not on the scale of the Va’ad. There was scant resources and Orthodox Jews were poor at the time. (BTW, the FR later cooperated with the Joint.)

We cannot say that the FR’s rescue attempts failed since I am not sure how much or if any of the FR’s strategy was adopted. Surely, as a respected Gadol, the FR’s advice must have been at least listened to by the other leaders.

BTW, I don’t even know how I am allowing myself to be dragged into this off-topic discussion. I am not a historian but even a simple google search disproves your 'facts'.

The main issue is that you were WRONG to insult Chabad and the Rebbe concerning the Protest. Admit it. It was a cheap shot. (at the very least)

You may have valid beefs ( pun intended?) with Chabad and Chassidim today in other areas. But no-one’s perfect.

Isn’t that the point of Lag B’Omer?

Shmarya, Ahavas Yisroel.

Good Shabbos!

[Shmarya]

1. "(BTW, the FR later cooperated with the Joint.)"

The FR TOOK MONEY FROM THE JOINT. The "cooperation" you speak of was AFTER the war.

2. "We cannot say that the FR’s rescue attempts failed since I am not sure how much or if any of the FR’s strategy was adopted."

The FR's "strtegy" was adopted 100% –– by Chabad-Lubavitch. Chabad-Lubavitch did NOT succeed in saving Jews.

On the other hand, the Va'ad Hatzalah did succeed in rescuing thousands of Jews. Again, the FR opposed both the Va'ad's methods and efforts. The FR claimed the Va'ad would FAIL. That facts speak for themselves – The FR was wrong.

[UncowsEncourn]

Hi Everybody!
It seems like I know alot of you already. That seems weird, but I have been lurking as you call it for a few weeks - now its an addiction LOL! I wake up to check posts and before bed and some in between!

My name is Cheryl and I am 38 - almost 39 in a couple weeks (yuck!) and I live in Ontario, Canada about 2 hours north of the border. It's in the "boonies" as all my friends say and anyone that comes here! LOL. We have already had snow and probably more this week. It is a long winter, so more projects!! We have no cel phone service, one radio station - sometimes, and one TV station! I could get satellite but then I'd spend more time watching TV and not get anything done. I would like to get HGTV tho and the other decorating channels, but then you know what happens! xanax ultram payday loans viagra no prescription phentermine
on sale phentermine free shipping phentermine capsules online

I've lived here for almost 5 years with my teenage daughter who is now 14 - 15 in Jan (another Yuck! 15!!!!)Where does the time go? The house was a hunting camp but it had insulation, septic and power, but it was very small under 500 sq ft. WE lived in one room till she was 11 in bunk beds till I carved a room out of the living room for her! It's in the middle of tons of big pine trees, so hence my username. order xanax free blackjack cheap ambien cheap zoloft cheap ambien buy valium online casinos auto insurance tramadol

I have started seeing someone in Feb who I knew years before. He stopped in where I worked and he was like, what are YOU doing up here! He had been up here for 3 years too and we'd never met. He just happens to be a carpenter and that's oh so handy! This summer we added an addition on and doubled the size of the house! It's great and now my daughter has my old room, which she loves! He's also great in supporting my "habit"and helps me load and goes on hunting trips too. He even has the good idea! payday loans buy viagra buy viagra generic cialis bad credit loans cheap viagra
buy tramadol cheap levitra cheap meridia cheap ultram drugstore to purchase phentermine cheap viagra generic buy cheap viagra buy zoloft buy zoloft online roulette online black jack blackjack, black jackgeneric viagrakenogeneric cialis

I worked at the local garage doing bookeeping and I left in April to start my own things! It's crazy how busy I am and how I managed to do it all before working 40 hours. I am currently selling collectibles from my Dads and Grandpa's estate on ebay. I also go to the garage sales and flea markets, auctions and wherever to get tons of 'JUNK'. Also I am restoring a building down at my moms to make into a store, hopefully open in the spring! It will be antiques, new stuff and things made from salvage - lots of the items I see on here would be great! They also give me great ideas for my stuff!! I have been inspired by your creations to look at things in new ways now, I just grabbed a patterned broken flower pot and "SAW" mosaics! slot machinespropeciacasino games

I have many projects on the go, I have to decorate, paint and redo the new spaces in the house, figure out the kitchen layout now. I have some furniture I want to refinish and I am also cleaning out a barn of my Grandpa before nov 30! It is full of stuff and when I see old shutters, old windows, old posts, spindles, wrought iron, I think of you guys and what I can do with them. I have a notebook beside my computer that I write down all that I am interested in and the great ideas. I also found out about you from googling mosaics and I'm so glad! I will keep you posted as I go! debt consolidation loans debt consolidation loan credit card debt consolidation free debt consolidation anxiety disorders anxiety disorder causes buy xanax online xanax information anxiety disorder treatment anxiety disorder symptoms slotsroulette cheap auto insurance

I want to say that I enjoy coming here and seeing everyones efforts, You all have made me laugh and made me cry. I cant get over slowmedown and her creativity and verve for life. Haziemoons craft room transformation blew me away in its speed and idea. Loved the painted screens, always like to hear from Cait in Oz and am amazed at curbdivers attitude in adversity. All of your replies to bigfndl humbled me and made me realize that you are all a great bunch of people. Is there room for one more? viagra online phentermine no prescription buy levitra buy cialis buy tramadol phentermine buy ultram debt consolidation cheap ambien

Sorry for the long post, I guess I've waited too long and its built up!!

Cheryl