London Beit Din Refuses To Accept Conversion By Israel's Rabbinate -- Sefardic Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar's Office Vouched For the Convert -- To No Avail

The London Beit Din has refused to recognize a woman -- converted 15 years ago by a Rabbinute Beit Din -- as Jewish and is refusing to allow her son into a London Jewish high school as a result.

Are there two Jewish peoples?

Sadly, the answer is now yes.

Comments

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

By the grace of G-d
Shalom ubrocha!
This situation is not new and neither it lacks justification.
In fact the Beis Din of any community (chareidi or not chareidi) has ultimate authority to decide who to accept as Jewish or as a member of that community unless there is a universaly recognized Sanhedrin accepted by all or a prophet there is realy no authority for anyone to say that a decision of a Beis Din was wrong unless you are familiar with details of the case and have a strong reason to believe that the decision is mistaken or the judges were bribed or the like.
As far as the "Haredisation" of the Orthodoxy this is going to continue as the Modern Orthodoxy was designed to save Jews of that generation from asimilation by adopting various compromises (halachikly questionable in other circumstances) such as co-ed schools or the like. And this is well known to anyone who honestly investigated the subject.See for example Rabbi Norman Lam's interview to Beis Moshiach from few years ago it's also mentioned in some parts of "Mind Over Matter" I can't recall exact page though http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=111581

PS:A person who have undergone giur but doesn't observe Torah to the standards of the community which converted him for a t least 3 years is generaly presumed to have not accepted mitzvot at the time he or she converted according to an answer of Rabbi Eliyahu Essas on http://www.Jew.ru if the person became less than fully observant after 3 years because he feels it's too hard for him is treated as a Jew unless he says that he doesn't believe in the foundations of faith anymore.
A quote from the story:
"They showed him the relevant certificates with
signatures authenticating her conversion, as well as a letter from the personal aide of Israel’s Sephardi Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar giving further confirmation. But after meeting the family, Dayan Gelley wrote to them declaring: “Regrettably, given the details of your conversion with particular regard to the level of commitment and observance to Orthodox Jewish practice at the time of your conversion, the Beth Din is not able to recognise your conversion effected in Israel.” ....... After another exchange of correspondence in February, Dayan Gelley e-mailed Mrs Sagal saying he had not contacted Israel’s Sephardi Chief Rabbi, whom he knew, “and I am not sure that I intend to, since I have no doubt that Israel recognises your conversion.” ...... Neither Dayan Gelley nor any other representative of the London Beth Din would comment on the
case.
"
brocha ve'hatzlocha:
Ariel Sokolovsky
http://www.moshiachtv.blogspot.com
Long Live our Master our Teacher and our Rebbe King Moshiach Forever and Ever!

[John]

Of course, it has nothing to do with the Askenazi London Beth Din wanting to make some money out of it, does it?

Anyway.. interesting comment piece here:

http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/1423_beth_din_bad_decisio.htm

When is an orthodox Jewish conversion not quite an orthodox Jewish conversion? Well, it seems for the London Beth Din and the Chief Rabbi, if you get converted under an orthodox procedure don't expect them to recognise it as being kosher.

[Isa]

Syrian Jews do not recognize ANY conversion. Not EVEN done by the Lub Rebbe himself. NO EXCEPTIONS AT ALL.
This was decreed in 1936- the same year that Allepo was sacked and burned in Syria.
I think the historical background was concerning an 'Orthodox' conversion 'mill' operating in (?) New York. Too many Syrian men were getting wives this way.

[rebeljew]

The article has a disturbing piece of info:

"...Guy would be offered a place only if
the school was “unable to fill its standard admissions number with children who are recognised as being Jewish by the Office of the Chief Rabbi.”"

Rebel's translation: We don't recognize or disavow your conversion, per se, but we don't want to make any shailas. However, we will toss all of that out and take your money if WE need to.

Another problem factoid in the article:

“Regrettably, given the details of your conversion with particular regard to the level of commitment and observance to Orthodox Jewish practice at the time of your conversion, the Beth Din is not able to recognise your conversion effected in Israel.”

Rebel's translation: We can base our decision on our post factual assessment of our impression of what you were doing at a some time in the past, even in cotradiction to the presiding Beis Din. We just have no compelling benefit to us to accept it.

Observation: If we tell poeple that they must convert halachically to be recognized universally as Jewish, of what value is such conversion if that is not the case? It seems that cases like this one set back the cause of Mihu HaYehudi. Unless of course, we can't fill up our vacancies in which case, your money is still green.

[Conservative Apikoris]

Feh! They should just give up on the meshuganneh orthodox and find a nice Masorti congregation.

[Harbona]

Syrian Jews do not recognize ANY conversion. Not EVEN done by the Lub Rebbe himself. NO EXCEPTIONS AT ALL.
This was decreed in 1936- the same year that Allepo was sacked and burned in Syria.
I think the historical background was concerning an 'Orthodox' conversion 'mill' operating in (?) New York. Too many Syrian men were getting wives this way.

ISA , I do not think that you are using the terms that the Syrian Rabbis would have used .
In any case , their behaviour is nothing short of repugnant , reprehensible , Toeba- obscene is another word that comes to mind along with wicked -reshaeem , ge-eem, teme-eem - in hebrew if you prefer .
Imagine a whole community rejecting simultaneously 26 commandments de-Orayta including Shabbat , moadei Yisrael , avoda zarah and arayot .
I understand that R' Moshe Feinstein z'l at one time tried to talk some sense into them without any success.
It's not funny , rather tragic .
I am sure they are meticulous with Pat Yisrael , Chalav Yisrael & Kemah Yashan . Not so with shaming their brothers = Aboda Zara , Giluy Arayot & Shefikhut Damim .
Not very nice , nor very clever , nor religious at all but as I said rather wicked .
Shame on them and on their so called Rabbis , hem ubneihem unsheihem vetalmidayhem .
Shame too on those in England rejecting a student who could otherwise possibly turn into another R' Akiba .

And BTW , who is the "even ..done by the (Hurry) Lu(e) Rebbe himself." ? and why should he be any different ?
Many wonder when will the redeemer come ? Some say - easy lite that candle we give you at the door of the grocery . I don't think so while some behave like hypocrite beheimot . They make the ikkar-tafel & the tafel-ikkar . Idiots .

[Isa]

Dear Harbona:
I didn't state specifically my feelings on the Syrian rabbis but when I state 'in the same year Allepo was sacked...' You might or might not think I meant they suffered the 'judgement of heaven'. By the way, I believe no Jews were killed, it was just the grand synagogue that was set afire as well as other buildings.
Nowadays I think they (Syrians in New York) are losing part of their community due to this ruling concerning converts.
On the other hand,I think a large number left Syria to at least Lebanon, where life was good to at least 1975.

[Lumpy Rutherford]

Feh! They should just give up on the meshuganneh orthodox and find a nice Masorti congregation.
-----

A place that welcomes goyim. Natch.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Feh! They should just give up on the meshuganneh orthodox and find a nice Masorti congregation.
-----

A place that welcomes goyim. Natch.
-----

The term goyim isn't supposed to imply anything negative, so you must have no issue with an open-door policy that rejects intermarriage but rather encourages conversion according to Gemara standards (brith/tevillah/beth-din) after serious study. Of course, when left in the hands of the Orthodox, the proper understanding of such terms can easily become corrupted, much like the common Orthodox take on "kosher" conversions, kashruth, etc.

Do yourself and Am Yisrael a favor and study the rich history of gerim. Perhaps you'll remember it while davening the thirteenth blessing of the Amidah.

[Harbona]

ISA - You are OK .
I do not wish them bad . I find their attitude totally wrong . I first learned of this leafing thru a booklet I saw at a Steimatzki tourist shop of R' Steinzaltz - interviewing one of their community - who it seems is a big fan of this attitude , and using the Syrians as a role model . I am sort of a fan of his as a very capable and erudite scholar .
But as mentioned earlier on this site , his general hashkofe leaves a lot to be desired .
As to the Aleppo cristalnacht , the Jewish Virtual Library , reports it to have taken place in 1947 -after the decision of partition of Palestine - rather than 1936 .

" When partition was declared in 1947, Arab mobs in Aleppo devastated the 2,500-year-old Jewish community. Scores of Jews were killed and more than 200 homes, shops and synagogues were destroyed. Thousands of Jews illegally fled Syria to go to Israel.1 "

[Harbona]

"Are there two Jewish peoples?
Sadly, the answer is now yes."

Not really , it's rather 72X4 nations , keneged the 72 tongues X 4 denominations . Keep on multiplying the chumros & in 2 decades we will be down to 72X4 individuals , by which time either moschiach comes or becomes irrelevant

[Isa]

Dear Harbona:
You are right about the date. Although a smaller 'disturbance' could have occured in 1936. Anyway this is what I found about the Syrian ban on conversions:
Syrian Jews who marry gerei tzedek - even very frum ones - are excluded from the community and forced to "assimilate" with the local Ashkenazim. There seems to be Herem (ban) that is posted in Syrian synagogues that was issued in 1935 by the leaders of the community on intermarriage and marriage with converts.

[Steg (dos iz nit der [sh]teg)]

It's the Syrian communities in Brooklyn (well, the NYC metro area) and Buenos Aires who don't accept converts. They also won't let their people marry converts, or the children of converts(!).
Supposedly it's an anti-intermarriage tactic.

[Mikhail]

Just as well Boaz and Ruth did not have to rely on a Beit Din. And HaShem saw fit to allow a her to be the family line of David!
Mikhail