The Ugly Americans? Is The Kosher Supervision Business Kosher? Maybe Not…

Is today's kosher supervision G-d's work or is it simply big business?

The Jerusalem Report has an article on American kashrut agencies muscling in on European turf.

Choice quotes:

According to Lubicom Marketing Consulting, a Brooklyn-based firm that researches the industry, the $8-billion kosher market in the United States has been growing at a 15-percent rate for the last few years. Ironically, most of that growth is not being driven by people who keep kosher. As Lubicom's research shows, the vast majority of kosher consumers buy kosher products because they believe they're safer, healthier or tastier.

"Kosher is hot," quips Rabbi Moshe Elefant, executive rabbinic coordinator of the OU, which is currently giving most of its new certifications outside the United States, especially in the Far East. Dr. Avrom Pollak, president of Star-K, which currently supervises some 200 companies in China, estimates that half of Star-K�'s new certifications are now going abroad. Kashrut certification is so globalized and ecumenicized, in fact, that the OU -- which supervises some 6,000 plants in 70 countries -- is currently certifying a Turkish factory packing kosher Christmas candies. Most of the time, the agencies send supervisors from Israel or the United States, although they occasionally employ local rabbis.…

But Rabbi Eliezer Maarsen, rabbinic administrator of the Orthodox chief rabbinate of Holland, which supervises about 100 Dutch food manufacturers, takes a different tone. "It seems like for them America is not big enough. Now they take what they can get," he protests. "They are coming to Holland, to Belgium, to Luxembourg. To everywhere." Maarsen says the Dutch rabbinate has so far not lost much business, but that competition for new customers is fierce.…

The income generated by kashrut supervision is especially significant to smaller communities. Holland's Maarsen, for example, says money earned from the rabbinate's certification business is funneled back into the 25,000-member Dutch Jewish community to support education and synagogue life. "They need this money," he says.…

"The old principle that goes back to the Hasam Sofer [Europe�s preeminent halakhic authority 200 years ago] that the rabbi was king in his province or city, that nobody entered, not to marry or to slaughter, is over," [Rabbi Maarsen] laments. "They are not dealing with respect these days. That is over."…

[T]he perception of the large American agencies' certification as a kind of global brand may be created by the agencies themselves. "Part of their tactics is to talk negatively about the local rabbinate to convince companies that staying with the local authorities will take them nowhere," says a rabbi who has worked with several of the agencies. Indeed, Rabbi Yosef Tirnauer, who serves the OU as a globetrotting kashrut supervisor, makes it clear … how he views the competition. "Whoever joins us, I tell them, 'Welcome to the club. We're the Mercedes.'" Turning to export manager Cakir, he promises, "If you pack this honey with the OU symbol, the sky is the limit. Catering, hospitals, airplanes. Even jails."

So, is it G-d's work or big business? You decide.

Read it all here.

Comments

[FNU LNU]

I side with the big agencies on this actually ... are we going to have to know the certification of every city, every province, nationality and region of this world to know what we can eat and what we can't.

The fewer the symbols (that most people rely on) the easier the marketability from the agencies perspective and the easier it is to shop for the kosher consumer.

This is not, as in the past, people going to a local region and deciding whether they can eat the local rabbi's food but what that food on the shelf with the funny symbol is here.

It would be better if there was some better profit sharing equation. One area which has been negliected is where exactly all that money the OU earns goes...

It is a shame if the Turkish chief rabbinate is losing business on this. But I don't even know what their certifying symbol is and, if I saw it, would not eat it -- not because I do not trust it but because I know very little about it.

[IM]

This site is getting more and more loony in its paranoia and conspiracy theories.
Here's the little secret:

1)Companies that market food products do so in order to make money.
2)They take on a heksher in order to expand their market and (possibly) to attract higher prices.
3)Therefore, they hire the heksherim that are most likely to help them achieve that goal (The greater the symbol recognition, the more markets that are opened up to them, especially if they can then wholesale to other plants that are under the same heksher).
4)This is the reason that Rubashkin has multiple heksherim: Each buys them an entre into a different market.

[Shmarya]

The question is not the motivation of the companies or the legitimacy of that motivation. The question is the behavior of kosher supervising agencies – most of them registered as NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS with the US government. If the OU, etc. do not want to rely on the Chief Rabbi of Holland or Turkey, etc., for KASHRUT reasons (i.e., the rabbi in question is not trustworthy or will not adapt to OU standards) – fine. But if this issue is soley one of business expansion, either for the company and/or the supervising agency, then let the OU be an ADDITIONAL SUPERVISION. It seems to be the fair and the Halakhic thing to do.

[FNU LNU]

Shmarya, that implies that the OU supervision can be provided either without costs or their own standards. They are a seperate entity, and their kashrut has a cost. They provide a value that the Chief Rabbinate of Turkey can not provide, i.e. being well-known (and generally considered reliable), and their providing such service makes the Chief Rabbinate of Turkey unnecessary in this regard.

As for their non-profit status, I believe that does not mean the entity can not try to maximize its profits so much as the purposes of the entitiy must be legitimate. It would be wrong for the OU to use the money for kashrut to pay dividends to members of the OU but it is not illegal to use that money for legitimate tax-exempt purposes, e.g. charitable purposes.

The question here is only, as I see it, if the OU does have global aspirations (and so far there is no evidence of that as opposed to wanting to serve their own native US market better w. foreign products) then there should, as an issue of fairness, be a cost allocation amongst the various areas that the OU seeks to cover. If the OU wants to be the kosher provider to Turkey, then some money it earns should flow to the Orthodox Jewish community of Turkey. But that is not a legal requirement.

[Shmarya]

It is a HALAKHIC issue, not necessarily a legal issue. But what is wrong with the OU putting its seal on a product supervised by a trustworthy rabbi abroad? The Rabbinute does this all the time, and the OU does it in some cases, too. Follow the money.

[FNU LNU]

Of course there is money involved. If the OU offers greater value for a company then another hecsher then it is obvious they would want the OU first. And why would they then want to pay for a second unnecessary hecsher? The hecshers that work together, like the OU, KAJ, etc. usually bring something to the table that the other does not. I have not yet seen joint OU, OK or Star-K on anything as they tend to cover the same clientele.

As for the halachic issues involves, again it is questionable whether honey that will ultimately be sold in NY requires the OU to defer to the Turkish rabbinate. Why is that the same as going to eat in Turkey? The food is coming here to the OU's turf, so it makes sense the OU goes there and makes sure we can eat it.

And what if some here - or the OU - actually considers the other jurisdiction unreliable? Does it need to actually besmirch the other rabbinate to offer its services?

Were we talking about local restaurants the issue would be different, I suppose.

The Turkish rabbinate is, in this area, antiquated. If it is being cut out, it is because it is not offering anything that the OU can not do better.

Seriously, would you eat honey certified by the Chief Rabbinate of Turkey? First, would you even know its symbol? And if you did, would you know whether to rely on it?

Why do people have to go to their rabbi for every symbol?

The OU provides a service, first, by setting uniform standards and guidelines and, second, by letting the kosher consumer actually know the item is kosher.

[Josh]

These Rabbis in european countries should try and get hired by the OU to be a represenative in that country for OU. It is beneficial to the OU cause it'll cut down on travel costs. There are represenatives of the OU all over the US. I know of one Rabbi who has his own heksher that he offers, and certifies for the OU.

[Paqah]

" Seriously, would you eat honey certified by the Chief Rabbinate of Turkey? First, would you even know its symbol? And if you did, would you know whether to rely on it? "
a- I would surely eat that honey & would prefer it over American Honey for many reasons -
1- The Turkish Rabbinate is a direct heir to the tradition of the Beis Yosef - and as such should be more worthy than the plastic American commercial institutions .
2 - Turkish honey is in all likelyhood less fiddled with environmentally or industrially than American honey & thus would be healthier.
3- As important , similar to Cholov ruling of R' Moshe Feinstein , Turkish food industry is subjected to EU's more stringent rules than the US FDA .
4- Most important : to support a sister fledgelling Jewish community and it's institutions . Doing the opposite is reminescent of maasseh Amolek !

b- A better - and more honest leshem shomayim service that the OU and Star K and OK and Crown Heights and KAJ and others could or ought to provide to every kosher home an honest list of recognised certifications !

"Why do people have to go to their rabbi for every symbol?"

c- They don't need to ! they ought to be educated trained to discern on their own . Judaism survived for millenias without the need for a label that often proves ineffective when it matters ! This total dependence on labels is a distortion of Judaism !

" The OU provides a service, first, by setting uniform standards and guidelines and, second, by letting the kosher consumer actually know the item is kosher. "

d- Thank you , no need to do hassogos gvul of others in the process !

[bill]

Can someone tell OU to certify poptarts already.

[FNU LNU]

a) OK, its good you know of the great tradition of Turkish Orthodoxy. But its still not clear you'd recognize their symbol in a store. And even if you do, are those who are ignorant of the Turkish hecsher - which is most of us I am sure -- denied access to a product.

a4) Certifying products sold internationally is not a traditional function of a Jewish community. The hecshers are there to accomodate the kosher consumer; not the other way around.

b) They can not provide such a list; they'd be sued for slander and defamation. If kashrut is a business such a list would harm some's livelihood and good name (as they'd see it) and thbey'd sue.

c) Ought here is irrelevant. I ought know shas. Alas, I do not. There ought be world peace. Yes, people ought be extremely educated about kashrut. Most basically know which symbols they can buy, and how to act around a kitchen.

[FNU LNU]

One other thing, you act like people ought be able to look at the ingrediants list and tell if an item is kosher. We all know that you can not tell what was previously on the production line, minor ingrediants need not always be listed etc.

It is not merely halachic knowledge but the time spent actually insuring all the elements of production for which we pay the certifiers. The days are past when we can just look at the ingrediants.

You can educate people to the moon. If you have no one certifying the production line, there is still no way to insure kashrut.

[Ladron]

"OK, its good you know of the great tradition of Turkish Orthodoxy."

I am not sure they think of themselves in terms of Orthodoxy , an alien term that the Ashkenazi Haredi World decided fairly recently -in historic terms- to adopt from the Christian Orthodox Churches .
In other circumstances darkei ha emori comes to mind .

"And even if you do, are those who are ignorant of the Turkish hecsher - which is most of us I am sure -- denied access to a product."

Not if they are taught what is acceptable & what is not ! To the befuddled observer that I am , it seems that American Kashrut organisations prefers to keep Jews deliberately in the dark & solely reliant on the labels .

" The hecshers are there to accomodate the kosher consumer; not the other way around."

Who is talking about the consumer accomodating the Hechsher ?

" They can not provide such a list; they'd be sued for slander and defamation. If kashrut is a business such a list would harm some's livelihood and good name (as they'd see it) and thbey'd sue."

A quick search on line , will reveal to you several lists of Hechshers that are distributed by many Kashrus organisms who support each other without lawsuits in secular courts.

".....There ought be world peace..... Yes, people ought be extremely educated about kashrut. Most basically know which symbols they can buy, and how to act around a kitchen.....We all know that you can not tell what was previously on the production line, minor ingrediants need not always be listed etc. "

I know , if my grandmother wore pants , they would call her zaidy . For heaven's sake what did Shulkhan Arukh
had in mind when he permitted Pas Nokhri , and what did R' Moshe Feinstein have in mind when he permitted Cholov Akum . What labels and what ingredients were they refering to ? Modern days US Jews can't manage on their own in the kitchen because they are subjected to gneivas daas .

" You can educate people to the moon. If you have no one certifying the production line, there is still no way to insure kashrut."

I am one who believes that "vachai bahem" does not mean siting all day in terror and fear lest we eat something wrong and can only be calmed by assurance of some inspectors who it is becoming evident now -in the AgroProcessors case- are granting their label without physical inspection .
Another question Mr FNU LNU
Often I find that manufacturers used to certain hekhshers would "extend" their kosher line without asking for permition . If Moyshe Kosher Consumer is lucky , the certifying agency will find out . What will the agency do ? They will anounce in some obscure internal trade publication - was never certified , is no longer certified as the case may be . I never saw a recall , what happens to Moyshe Kosher Consumer ? What happens to the goods on the shelf ? So I ask you what is the value of the hechsher . Oy ! bein beshoygeg bein bemezid ! Whose shoygeg & whose mezid ?

[FNU LNU]

Ladron:

- observant Jews in Turkey might not consider themselves 'Orthodox': agreed. I am not familiar with their community but assume they have a Sephardi view.

- "American Kashrut organisations prefers to keep Jews deliberately in the dark & solely reliant on the labels" I do not know their goals but they do purposefully leave us ignorant of some things (e.g. what products do not need hecsherim).

- "Who is talking about the consumer accomodating the Hechsher ?" See 'Paqah' above re: supporting small foreign hescshers

- "A quick search on line , will reveal to you several lists of Hechshers that are distributed by many Kashrus organisms" Yes, local shuls do that, you are right. I do think if the large groups made such a move there would be lawsuits. And no one publicly says an entity is no good.

"I know , if my grandmother wore pants , they would call her zaidy ." Ancestral hirsutism need not be publicly revealed :P

"For heaven's sake what did Shulkhan Arukh had in mind when he permitted Pas Nokhri , and what did R' Moshe Feinstein have in mind when he permitted Cholov Akum ."
I don't know and I don't know (but see next answer).

"What labels and what ingredients were they refering to ?" They referred to the ingrediants in the products I imagine. My understanding of R' Moshe was that cholov akum was so rigidly managed and the economic incentives were such that cholov akum in the US is halachically equivalent to cholov yisrael. Rigid enforcements in specific (kosher) ingrediants is not the norm of US food products.

"Modern days US Jews can't manage on their own in the kitchen because they are subjected to gneivas daas . "
Yes ignorance, to many hecshers, less time in the kitchen and the fact that we are more removed from where our food is from.

"Another question Mr FNU LNU
Often I find that manufacturers used to certain hekhshers would "extend" their kosher line without asking for permition . If Moyshe Kosher Consumer is lucky , the certifying agency will find out . What will the agency do ? They will anounce in some obscure internal trade publication - was never certified , is no longer certified as the case may be . I never saw a recall , what happens to Moyshe Kosher Consumer ? What happens to the goods on the shelf ? So I ask you what is the value of the hechsher . Oy ! bein beshoygeg bein bemezid ! Whose shoygeg & whose mezid ?"
Please provide an example where a kosher certifier purposefully left a nonkosher product marked kosher in their name on the shelf. In any event, the certifiers do not assure a product as kosher (though they'd like us to think they do) but very much increase the odds that it is so. You are buying improved odds of hecsher, nothing more.

[Ladron]

"Please provide an example where a kosher certifier purposefully left a nonkosher product marked kosher in their name on the shelf. In any event, the certifiers do not assure a product as kosher (though they'd like us to think they do)"

Here is few examples - purposely ? and if it's not purposely , is it of any comfort to the end user ? In fact the certifier never gets involved in product removal , not from the shelves of wholesellers, retailers or consumer . As u continue yourself to say ! The consumer is not really buying much of any form of peace of mind => which leads us back to caveat emptor (buyer beware)- who needs them then ?
Please note before proceeding any further , that this is from a trade publication that is only available for people in the trade & for uncommonly curious consumer .

" The following kashrus update is from the Star-k on November 18, 2004.
Please be advised that new productions of TWIN MARQUIS fried and steamed products - i.e egg rolls, dumplings, buns, etc. - are being made, starting November 17, 2004. All new productions of fried and steamed products may only be used when bearing both the Star-K symbol and the Hebrew signature of the Mashgiach.
The following kashrus notice is from Star-kt dated November 8, 2004.
It has come to the Star-K's attention that some bulk-sized boxes of fried and steamed products, e.g. egg rolls, vegetable dumplings, tuna buns, etc. manufactured by TWIN MARQUIS, INC., Brooklyn, NY, have been mislabeled and bear an unauthorized Star-K.The previous alert can be cited with the URL: http://www.kashrut.com/TradeNotices/?alert=T0145 "

Go figure , what does the agency do in this case apart
from collecting a fee ? A slap on the wrist ?

" The following kashrus alert is from Organized Kosher Supervision on August 30, 2004.
Please be advised that some bulk Dairy products from Varda Chocolatier are mistakenly labeled with an OK symbol missing the Dairy designation on the master carton. These products are Kosher Dairy.
The only Pareve products from Varda Chocalatier are as follows: Par-Cappucino Cup Par-Dome Cage.....Par-Shell
Par-Swan Cup
Please contact Varda Chocolate for Details. Labels are being corrected.
The previous alert can be cited with the URL: http://www.kashrut.com/TradeNotices/?alert=T0143"

Oops ! so it's being corrected Yippee ! What will the person who never gets to see the notice with a box in his pantry do ?

"The following kashrus alert is from the Hashgoche Charedis of Mexico - Koshermex on August 24, 2004.
INDUSTRIA BASICA DE SABILA - INBASA / INDUSTRIA MEXICANA DE PRODUCTOS VEGETALES ( DIVISION OF IMPROVE USA)
Please be advised that due to Kashrus violations, all products (Aloe Vera and derivates) produced by Industria Basica de Sabila (a division of Inprove USA) and/or Industria Mexicana de Productos Vegetales are no longer kosher certified. Even products produced before this date should not be accepted.The previous alert can be cited with the URL: http://www.kashrut.com/TradeNotices/?alert=T0142 "

Please be advised ... should not be accepted !

" The following kashrus alert is from the Chicago Rabbinical Council on August 19, 2004.
The following product produced by Circle U under the name DOMINO’S BREADSTICK item # 1003012 was labeled Pareve and should read Dairy.
The previous alert can be cited with the URL: http://www.kashrut.com/TradeNotices/?alert=T0141"

Oh , it should read dairy !

"The following kashrus alert is from the Star-K on August 13, 2004.
Please be advised that an unauthorized Kosher certification letter was recently distributed stating that gelatin manufactured by CANGZHOU JINJIAN GELATIN CO. LTD. of Cangzhou City is under Star-K supervision. This is a forged document. The company is not under Star-K certification and the product is not Kosher.
The previous alert can be cited with the URL: http://www.kashrut.com/TradeNotices/?alert=T0140 "

Oh ! it's not Kosher , oops it's forged !

" The following kashrus alert is from KOAOA - Kosher Overseers on July 23, 2004.
Please be aware that any product produced by Nikken Foods Co., Ltd., general offices St. Louis, Missouri, is certified kosher by KOAOA-Kosher Overseers only when produced with constant rabbinic supervision and when the rabbi's signature appears on the label. It has come to our attention that there is a Spray Dried Fermented Soy Sauce product being distributed with a Half-Moon K without a rabbi's signature. Please be advised that these products are not under the supervision of KOAOA-Kosher Overseers. The previous alert can be cited with the URL: http://www.kashrut.com/TradeNotices/?alert=T0139 "

Please be advised , they are not !

" The following labeling error kashrus alert is from the OU on July 16, 2004.
Red Salsa Snack Seasoning (B02284) an industrial item, Williams Foods Inc., Lenexa, KS is certified as OU-D but the dairy designation has been inadvertently omitted. Future packaging has been revised.
The previous alert can be cited with the URL: http://www.kashrut.com/TradeNotices/?alert=T0138 "

Alright! So it's OU D. We have probably seen worse than this ! Why get excited ?

" The following labeling error kashrus alert is from the Kof-K on July 9, 2004.
Calico Cottage Butter Pecan Flavor was mistakenly labeled Kof-K Pareve. This product contains dairy components and is certified Kof-K Dairy. The labeling has been corrected and all future product will bear the Kof-K Dairy designation.
The previous alert can be cited with the URL: http://www.kashrut.com/TradeNotices/?alert=T0137 "

This one on the other hand, is dairy ! Not parve !
If the certifying agencies are not ready to go thru the effort of protecting the integrity of their labels in a court of law, it's not only gneivas daas but also, outright gezel !

[FNU LNU]

If you eat nonkosher cause a rabbinic agency you think is reliable said something was kosher when it was not, then perhaps the sin is theirs and not yours.

The recalls notices do not necessarily say what the kosher agencies have done. And who is to say the item is 100% not kosher. Even gelatin is actually a machloket (bearing no resemblance to its origin).

Anyway, if you think the certifiers provide no service then feel free to read the labels. If you buy something with an OU you can guess there is something like a 99% chance you are eating kosher. If you buy something without a symbol, who can know.

If you want absolute knowledge that an item is kosher you are compelled to make sure you know all the halachot and produce it yourself. Not the strictest of the strict certification can absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, confirm every item on an assembly line. Good luck.

[Jonathan]

Their work is more G-dly than this rag website. Any moron that can type thinks he's G-d's gift to the world. YOU are the chilul HAshem.