Talmudic Proof To Support Rabbi Shear-Yashuv Cohen?

Here is a summary of the section of the Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Gittin, page 70b mentioned below.

Please note that:

1. In the first instance, the slaughtered man's bill of divorce is valid, because he was not touched after the slaughter and stayed in one place, so the slaughter alone caused his death.
2. In the second case, the man fled after being slaughtered. His death is ruled to be not a consequence of the slaughter alone. His movement or even the wind may have hastened his death.

From the Daf Yomi Advancement Forum:

[…]

(e)  Question: Does R. Yochanan really oppose the following?!          

1. (Shmuel): A man's windpipe and foodpipe were cut, and he gestured to witnesses to write a Get for his wife - they write and give it;
2. (Beraisa): A man was found cut up or hanging, and he gestured to witnesses to write a Get for his wife - they write and give it.

(f)  Answer: In those cases, the man is totally sane, just weakness has begun; by Kordaikus, his mind is deranged

(g)  Question: Shmuel contradicts himself!          

1. (Shmuel): A man's windpipe and foodpipe were cut, and he fled - we may testify that he died, permitting his wife to remarry.

(h)  Here, Shmuel rules that he is alive - how can we allow his wife to remarry?!

(i)  Answer: He is alive, but he will (soon) die.

(j)  Question: If so, the one who slaughtered him should be exiled (if it was unintentional)!          

1. Reuven unintentionally slaughtered Shimon's windpipe and foodpipe - he is not exiled.

(k)  Answer (R. Hoshaya): We are concerned that Shimon did not die from the slaughter alone, rather a wind contributed, or Shimon precipitated his own death (by moving around).

(l)  Question: What difference is there between these reasons?

(m)  Answer: If Shimon was in a marble house and moved about, there is only the latter concern; if he was outside and did not move, there is only the former concern.

[…]

Comments

[Thomas]

Shechita renders the animal no longer a Baal Chai. The Shluchan Aruch, which by the way is what you need to refer to, clearly states that after the Shechita process is done, you can even take a piece of the meat cook it and eat it once the animal ceases movement (Yoreh Deah 27), if there was an issue of Tzaar Baalei Chaim, the very act of taking the meat at that point would be forbidden. Kosher laws are a decree, a Chok, please don't try to rationalize them. Once Shechita takes place it is no longer a Chai. This is the one place where the law for the Jew is more lenient than for the Gentile. Open up a Jewish book and perhaps you can learn something.

[Shmarya]

What you miss is that, for a non-Jew, the animal is *alive* until it *stops moving*. In other words, while one *can* do what the Shulkhan Arukh mentions, on *should not* do so to begin with (l'chatkhila). Further, the process at Rubashkin's slaughterhouse *mandated* that a *non-Jew* rip the throat while the animal was still moving. One is *not* allowed to cause a non-Jew to sin, and one certainly can *not* benefit from that sin.

[thomas]

Wrong again Scott. The only prohibition for the Goy is if he eats it. There is no sin in cutting it up once the animal has undergone shechita. There is no mention at all of lchatchila not doing this. Did you look up the Shulchan Aruch? What the Rambam writes regarding Ever Min Hachai for the Goy? for the Yid? Do you know where this information exists? Sue your parents, they did not send you to the proper schools to learn how to learn.

[D Brand]

I can't believe I'm even getting involved here, becuase I would much rather hear what Talmedei Chachomim have to say on this issue. First, people are giving PETA way too much credibility. These whackos recently had a campaign discouraging people from eating fish because, after all, fish have feelings. I am also inclined to agree with the position that anti-kosher activists are anti-Semetic. But none of that would warrant my posing here.

My disagreement is first with the quoting of a Gemarah as is relates to L'Maaseh. Anyone who has learned for even a short time understands that the development of Halacha is much more complex. Want proof? Look at just one example, which is selling Chometz before Pesach. Not a single Gemarah deals with it, yet it is commonplace today. A Gemarah is just not the place to go in this case.

Much worse, however, with the comparrison to Gittin is the fact that throughout the Mesechta, we see that there are many, many examples of leniencies in order to prevent Agunos and other similarly tragic situations. How could anyone compare the case of where we assume the person to be alive THEREBY CREATING A KULAH to the normal case of Shechita?

[Zev Sero]

People, just stop and think for a moment. OK, so let's assume that, as far as a goy is concerned, the torah regards a post-shechita-but-still-moving animal as alive. Is there any prohibition on a goy cutting the neck of a living animal? Of course not - it's called slaughter! That's how a goy slaughters animals - he pulls out its simanim, or hits it over the head with a hammer, or shoots it, or whatever. He can't *eat* it until it's stopped moving, but it's too ridiculous for words to suggest that he can't *kill* it until it's dead first!

You people who are going off on this tangent need to take a good hard look at yourselves and see where your assumptions have led you, and ask yourselves what exactly your motivations are, that you could get to this point. In Shmarya's case, we know what it is. The Rubashkins are Chabadniks, so he automatically hates them, and will pounce on any story that is detrimental to them, just like Dan Rather and the the President.

[Isa]

Shmarya called me about PETA when the story first broke. We both assumed PETA was in the wrong and I still had the files on 'someone' we did a 'story' back in 1989. This 'someone' had sided with PETA and I was going to copy the files and send them on to an orgainization that had need of them UNTIL PETA produced the video and we both figured PETA was in the right. Compared to the rabbinic authority in charge of Iowa that 'someone' is 'white as snow'

PETA used a camera that is neutral and only recorded
a true and horrible image of savagery perpetrated on helpless animals.
We have been told this meat is ‘kosher’ and even ‘glatt’ but in reality is only trefet.
Our ‘rabbis’ who we have placed our trust in them have failed us utterly.
Now certain ‘corrective measures’ will be put in place but supervised by these same ‘rabbis’?
The Jewish house must be cleaned out!
From the lowly shochet and mashgiah to the supervising ‘rabbis’ whether on site or not, all must go, whether in this position or any other future position. They have shown they are not worthy of out trust now and in the future.
Isa

[Jonas]

PETA may be an organization that claims killing animals is as bad as
the Holocaust and that is completely opposed to animal slaughter in
general. Yet, it has clearly stated that it is not attacking
Schechita, and feels that compared to other methods of animal
slaughter, Shechita can be one of the best methods -- when done
properly. PETA is only highlighting this specific slaughterhouse's actions.
It seems quite impossible that
after watching that video, anyone could conclude that things are not
normally done that way at AgriProcessors.

No Jew (or human for that matter), after watching that video, can possibly
claim that the cows are unconscious after being schechted. No Jew
can further claim that those cows are not suffering. While the facts of
whether this is proper Schechita is yet to be decided by American
Jewish leaders, the process itself at that plant, as the video shows,
is problematic. Is this an exception to what normally goes on there?
Probably not. Maybe the worker kicking blood into the cow's face is
not normal practice, but the sheer number of cows trying to get up and
walk around and mooing and panting dispels that theory. If the video
only showed one or two cows, then maybe these slaughters could be
declared an exception, but the video pretty clearly presents many cows
suffering. If animal suffering is a normal aspect of Schechita, then
that is one thing, but then Jews need to stop claiming it is such a
humane way of killing that causes little or no pain to the animal.
Otherwise, Jews are being untruthful and hypocritical. I do believe,
though, that Schechita can be painless to the animal and that it is
not a problem with the method in general, but simply with this
slaughterhouse in particular.

Additionally, the Israeli Chief Rabbinate, which only endorses this
meat as kosher for Israel out of all American meat, has already
designated it as nonkosher. That said, when it comes to Kashrut,
should we not err on the side of caution? If there is significant
evidence – the video, the Israeli Chief Rabbinate, British Rabbis,
etc. – indicating that this meat is not kosher, then would it not make
more sense and be more prudent not to eat this meat until we can be
certain that it is kosher?

Regardless of the above, it cannot be disputed that what is going on
is inhumane. And if it is technically legal/kosher, we still need to
admit that it cannot be spiritually legal, that the method by which
AgriProcessors is schechting its cows is not in the spirit of Jewish
law. That puts a severe blemish on the Jewish community.

[Thomas]

Does anyone have information about the reliabilty and qualifications on "Rabbi" David Rosen? He is featured very prominently on the PETA website as an important voice of authority on this matter. Any background on where he received Semicha?

[Isa]

Dear Thomas:
As quoted in Erev Shabbat page 13 June 1990
"The head of Ponevezh Yeshiva, Rabbi David Poberski and the head of Tefferet Netanya Ysehiva, Rabbi Moshe Levin ordained David Rosen for the Rabbinate the eve of his departure on a mission to South Africa sixteen years ago"
(from June 1990)
Thomas you need to invesitigate the 'rabbis' in charge of the Iowa operation instead, These 'rabbis' must ALL go!
Isa

[Thomas]

Ask Shmarya if Rosen's claim is true. Shmarya has evidence that it is not.

[Dovid]

Shmarya gave me a copy of a translation of the Hebrew article "Ha Rav L'inyan Acher" by Avigdor Eskin, translated by Michael Scott Information and Research Center. The article goes on to say that David Rosen is essentially neither a rabbi nor a doctor as he claims to be. He is fair game in this matter, his claims can be debunked, and his authority is non-existent. But he is cited by PETA to support their claims. Batel Hayisod, Batel Habinyan.

[Shmarya]

Unfortunately, Rosen can cite semicha, and his semicha is at least as legitimate as most of Chabad semicha. What Rosen cannot cite are any post-highschool secular degrees.

Agudath Israel and others have all of this information. They are not using it.

[Isa]

I am one half of Michael Scott Information Research Center.
Rabbi David Rosen can certainly call himself a rabbi- he DOES have the paperwork. If you go on the Internet there is not one reference about ANY secular degree that he might be claiming. In fact he doesn't claim ANY secular degrees these days.
I would rather accept Rabbi David Rosen as my rabbi (gasp!!) then to accept any of these other 'rabbis' that have permitted gross cuelty to these animals. Rabbi David Rosen is 'snow white' compared to these other (expletive deleted) rabbis.
Clean the Jewish house all must go! from the lowly schochet to the mashgiah and finally to the supervising 'rabbis' they must go.
And a final word, there is no one holy enough for you that you would accept holding that camera. The camera holder would be shunned, excomincated and L-rd knows what.
Isa

[Isa]

Dear Dovid:
You need to read the footnotes, footnote 13b that is. After the article appeared, Rabbi David Rosen presented his rabbinic credentials to Eruv Shabbat. At least Rabbi David Rosen isn't saying "no problem it is kosher and glatt" when animals are being caused needless pain. A few times I worked at a Sunday operation where chickens and turkeys were schechted about 33 years ago. The animals were treated fairly there. If the schochets that were there 33 years ago saw Postville they would all barf and have tears in their eyes. I thought PETA was wrong too at first now I KNOW 'our' 'rabbis' have failed us.
Isa

[Ladron]

After they call it (Postville's) chasidishe shechita and refuse to eat other;s glatt shechita , they blame the Israeli Rabbinate for their misdeeds

[no one]

I know who Zev Sero is :)...Since I personally know him, I'll listen to whatever he has to say. Or, actually take what it has to say to thought.